Are the Fudds our enemy?

[Shane45 807]

I realise broad generalizations are a slippery slope. I concede that not all hunters are Fudds and even that not all Fudds may feel the same. BUT, I can not ignore the number of Fudds that sound like full fledge members of Gun Control Inc! When I watched the public hearings, it was suprising to see how many "Fudds" got up there and held the same exact view as the anti's. This weekend I had yet another Fudd tell me how "there is no need for 30 round clips to hunt". "Only the police and military should have black rifles" etc etc. By the end of the conversation, I may have not changed his mind but i could see I got his gears turning at least. But Im sure that fog of logic will fade quickly and he will return to his former postion after he remembers how to ignore logic and reason. But the continued rhetoric I see out of the Fudds and these personal interactions are truly leading me to believe that the Fudds or a group within that discription, may indeed be the enemy! Why is this group a danger to us? I believe they are a danger because the anti gun media holds them up and says things like "see even the average gun owner feels this is the right thing". We need a strategy to deal with this devide. I hate to say it but I dont think reaching out and preaching to this group is not the answer.

[incinerator950 0]

They're closer to the enemy than Liberal moderates are to the Democrats taking our guns away.

[mipafox 438]

By the end of the conversation, I may have not changed his mind but i could see I got his gears turning at least. But Im sure that fog of logic will fade quickly and he will return to his former postion after he remembers how to ignore logic and reason.

 

Pessimists see the difficulty in every opportunity.  Optimists see the opportunity in every difficulty.

 

He told them this parable. "Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. When he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance."

[ryan_j 0]

I don't think they're our enemy. But I think that if they have to choose between no guns and their guns they'll choose their guns.

[Duppie 73]

.....perhaps an friendly overture might start by not calling them Fudds?

[JustJoe 0]

It's not just the hunters. I see a lot of ' it's not my stuff they are coming for, so what do I care? " type of attitude. They either fail to see or don't want to that they'll be next.

[JustJoe 0]

.....perhaps an friendly overture might start by not calling them Fudds?

 

Yeah, this too.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

They are not enemies - they are potential allies in need of some education.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

PULL PIN! THROW GRENADE!! =@

 

Instead of callin' 'em Old Fudds:

 

I have a SOLUTION: Pick one law or topic that's dear to their hearts--like hunting--and explain how the Anti's in NJ want to go after the .50 cal guns, politely reminding them that their 20 ga. & 12 ga. rifled barrels for their shotguns weren't exempted during the proposal process (for the THIRD TIME since 1994 by Politicians who make 6+ figure incomes) yet again! And remind them that NO ONE has ever used a .50 cal precision rifle in a crime. Don't laugh, it really WORKS, because I'm here to tell ya I've already done it and turned a few heads!

 

We all must remember that this isn't a Democrat or Republican issue---it's a LIBERTY issue, and some Dems have lots of gun owners/hunters in their districts.

 

Become active in NJ2AS if you aren't already and learn from the folks who are climbing the hills & fighting the battles to change minds!

 

Just sayin'.........

 

Dave

NRA Life Member, Cerified Instructor, Mentor, Shootist

Sometimes referred to as "An Old Fudd" by some of my Friends, lol

[djg0770 481]

Perhaps addressing them as gentlemen hunters may be more appropriate. Further, it's important that they understand the message of incrementalization. Their guns are not yet under attack.

 

I'm reminded of two stories:

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

and

 

At a party meeting, a Communist party officer is drilling a local worker. He asks him:

“Comrade, if you had two houses, would you give one to the Communist Party?”

The worker responds “Yes, definitely, comrade, I would give one of my houses to the party!”

Then he asks “Comrade, if you had two cars, would you give one to the party?”

Again, the worker says, “Yes, I would give one of my cars to the party!”

Finally, the officer asks, “If you had two bicycles, would you give one to the party?”

The response “Nyet!”

So the officer asks “But why? Why won’t you give one of your bicycles to the party?”

The worker says: “Because I HAVE two bicycles!”

 

Once the gentleman hunter understands that THEY ARE AFTER HIS GUNS he will likely have a change of heart. But it's necessary to keep this image in his face - this image of incrementalism. The Jews have a practice where they wear Teffillin (excuse my spelling) between their eyes - to remind them to keep the word of G_d in front of them. We too should remember to keep our eye on the goal - that the other side intends to deprive us of our rights, fully. If we lose sight of that, we lose sight of everything.

[axeman_g 128]

Shane,

You could call me a converted fudd. I was a bird hunter and while I owned handguns and shotguns, I never much saw the reason for a black rifle. But through a simple conversation with a shooting partner, I was converted.

 

Now I admit that I am not truly a black rifle devotee now... tried them, like them but they are not my cup of tea. But I do understand the need to not limit based on a category. I think conversations go a long way knowadays... keep talking to folks. Make them see the implications.

[BigHayden 77]

.....perhaps an friendly overture might start by not calling them Fudds?

 

This is a chicken/egg thing. We wouldn't call them Fudds if they didn't offer us up as an appeasement on the altar of gun control.

 

See Steve Sweeney, who has stated recently that there is a "hollow point bullet loophole".

[Duppie 73]

This is a chicken/egg thing. We wouldn't call them Fudds if they didn't offer us up as an appeasement on the altar of gun control.

 

See Steve Sweeney, who has stated recently that there is a "hollow point bullet loophole".

Agreed...but I must ask. Is that the case?. I am unfamiliar with the actual percentage of primarily long gun hunters that show a willingness to sacrifice us on the"altar of gun control"and naive to any rational gun owner that would actually think that if not an outright ban,a stricter law and eventual registration of hunting rifles is not on the agenda. Am I being foolish in this respect?

[db1775 4]

The Gentleman Hunters I know generally come from a different generation (WWII/Post-WWII) when guys implicitly trusted law enforcement, the military and the national government. Things have changed, but they cling to this trust, it is the core of their worldview. I think I am on solid ground here, I know guy many like this and they are solidly of the opinion that "the government will protect us". Again, I'm grossly generalizing, but speaking only from personal experience.

 

What they fail to grasp is that the Antis don't really care about guns as inanimate objects. I don't think they really care about guns at all. What they really hate is our way of life, as gun owners. They use weeping mothers and children as tools, we all know that. What they are coming for is not just our hardware, it is for our personal independence and empowerment. The Gentleman Hunters don't grasp that simple fact -- in fact, they refuse to grasp it, to believe it. It doesn't fit into their calculus on this issue. If you can get one to see the politics of the issue, you'll convert them. However, the more likely end of that conversation will be an annoying tin foil hat joke.

[Shane45 807]

Let me be clear and repeat that Im not calling all hunters Fudd's. Im calling the Fudds, Fudds . Those that know me know I eternally preach 2A. Let me put it this way. I have converted a million fence sitters and even a few anti's. But I have never converted a Fudd! And that is NOT for a lack of trying.

[JustJoe 0]

This is a chicken/egg thing. We wouldn't call them Fudds if they didn't offer us up as an appeasement on the altar of gun control.

 

 

True. But I'm willing to bet the first one stretching my hand across the aisle. There's no downside and plenty of potential for upside for doing so.

Not that I ever referred to them as fudds, anyway.

[ChrisJM981 924]

Come on don't you understand why Cuomo's AWB, and the copy Cryan drafted is for mags more than 7 rounds? It's not an arbitrary number. It's the standard capacity mag for a 1911, and you won't see any hunting shotguns with a higher tube capacity. That is meant to divide and conquer us.

 

And yes I think those mouth breathers would throw us under the bus in heartbeat. They can thank this mall ninja for writing and calling our legislators. Thank god they put an exception in for those rifled shotgun barrels.

 

Edit: My grandfather served in WWII and my father in Vietnam. Both understood the necessity for arms as a means to protect against evil people. I don't need guns for sport or hunting. I need them to kill evil people that would hurt my family or I.

 

Molon Labe mfer's.

[Cold Steel 0]

It's been my experience that the average hunter doesn't follow the whole gun control debate too closely. Sure, some do but most don't unless something pops up that affects them. Most of the things proposed over the years haven't affected them because groups like ours intercept a lot of the crap and do the fighting for them.

Take for instance the .50 cal ban and how it could have affected shotguns and muzzleloaders. I bet most of them weren't even aware of it. They don't follow these issues as closely as we do. They're not our enemies. As Digz said, they are potential allies and we need to get the message to them when we can. Strength in numbers.

United we stand, divided we fall!

[Vlad G 345]

The good news is there are fewer and fewer of those folks around. For one, they come from an older generation which, nature being what it is, are slowly but surely disappearing. For another, hunting really isn't the big deal people used to make it to be, according to US Fish and Wildlife only 16% of gun owners hunt. Presumably the other 84% are more interested in self defense and sports, and even of the 16% I'm betting at least half do not fall in the "FUDD" category.

 

Lastly, a lot of them are being converted, if for no other reason that the recent spat of proposed laws around the country are so absurd and invasive that "they" really are coming from their guns, and they really want to do home checks, and talk to everyone in your family. This stuff affects everyone not just the black rifle fans.

[Shane45 807]

Cold Steel, there is a big diference in not following the debate to closely and picking a side. Every time I see a gun owner spouting the rhetoric of GCI, its a Fudd! Yes they are potential allies but I think reaching them is a lot harder than you think! In my view it may simply not be worth the effort. For the amount of effort to convert 1 a can convert 50 fence sitters. But again, this group is being held up as the "average gunowner" even though we all know this isnt the case. So what I think we need is a way to invalidate their statement, or devise a new startegy to reach that group. But I find that group is hard to reach for the same reason an anti is, their postion is emotional, not logical...with the addition of an egocentric postion and a willingness to sacrifice other segments of the gun owning populace. Competition shooters and self defence shooters stand up for everyones rights, the Fudd subculture found in the hunting segment does not.

[raz-0 1,259]

I don't think they're our enemy. But I think that if they have to choose between no guns and their guns they'll choose their guns.

 

Most of them will believe that there is a different option until it is too late. They want to have their fun and screw your fun if it interferes.

[Shane45 807]

But I think the point could be made that they have not yet realised its not about focusing on a segment of the gun community, its about disarmeng that segment first, but it wont be the last! And again, if their position is ambivilent, so be it. But when I see that segment standing up and testifying against us, that is a different matter entirely!

[Vlad G 345]

You are assuming they are a segment of the gun community. They are not, they just happen to own some guns. Those aren't the same thing.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I'll agree that there are Fudds in this world, but I'm with Vlad on this one. There used to be more of them, and now those that aren't around are in the "home" or dead. Although it takes a while for a Fudd to come around, unless they live completely "off the grid" there's just too much data going around to deny what's happening in our sport, from hunting to 3-Gun. It will take time, but eventually most will come-around. There are some that never will and all we can really do is hope that these folks "stay home" when we protest.

 

As to the idea that hunting is no longer a big hobby, I respectfully have to disagree. Hunting is just as popular or more so than it was 10 years ago, with just as many or more participants. In NJ for instance, deer hunting has increased with extended seasons and use of more hunting tools like bows & crossbows. On a percentage basis based upon gross population, of course not! The population in the inner cities exploded with "the great hand-outs" and those folks will never be shown how to hunt by a father or mentor. Just like when the Medicare budget gets analyzed, a 10% increase in spending over the previous year is made to look like a "cut" since the INCREASE is less than anticipated. I know some hunters from almost every firearms discipline that Old Bridge offers to club members, so there is some CROSS-OVER as well.

 

What we really need to do is to convince everybody that has a gun hobby to be as careful as can be, for we're all under the microscope. What we don't need is the type of news that came from Glassboro NJ in todays' wire stories about a clay bird shooter (who was loading the bird thrower) getting shot by a friend (who dropped his gun after tripping?) at a make-shift range in the middle of a field. It makes us all out to be idiots...and I'll take a dozen Old Fudds that just keep their mouths shut over a wire story like this any time......

[Vlad G 345]

I wasn't saying that hunting isn't a big hobby, I'm saying that every other segment of gun ownership has grown staggeringly faster and the hunter aspect of gun ownership is being overtaken.

[Shane45 807]

"You are assuming they are a segment of the gun community. They are not, they just happen to own some guns"

 

A valid point! So how do we stop them from getting heralded as such by the media and politicians?

[gunguy1960 2]

Ideally we would have as much respect for the first amendment as the second and not get hung up on who is the most respectful to those who may be applying pain to us from behind. If they really believe in their heart of hearts that they are right your names wont mean a thing to them, barring the use of sticks and stones. I understand that this is nj, and many belong to organizations or political party that are historically anti gun. We can pretend thats not so, okay, but beyond that all this bending over backwards is getting painful.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I wasn't saying that hunting isn't a big hobby, I'm saying that every other segment of gun ownership has grown staggeringly faster and the hunter aspect of gun ownership is being overtaken.

 

I agree with you 100%, especially in this State. What with over-regulation, zoning laws, insurance liability issues, lead abatement, taxes on real estate used for hunting, etc., more and more Hunting Clubs are being canabalized for McMansions to be constructed. Also, let's not forget that the single fastest growing segment of the firearms industry is personal protection for females. Kathy is way ahead of the curve thanks to you, and lots more of her friends & associates are finding out about firearms every day...... And the Club hasn't even posted the date for the next Women's Day at the Range and it's already half booked-up! At PPC I'm seeing several husband & wife couples out shooting--now more than ever before! So ya--it is a staggering difference!

[wooly bugger 1]

Having just educated a number of hunters at my club last week, I can tell you that apathy and lack of information are our biggest concerns. These are easily overcome, although it's a battle to get them to do the heavy lifting of writing and calling.

 

Most hunters are not active in online forums and do not carefully read every "common sense" bill proposed and think about the (un)indended consequences. They just see "AWB" and assume it doesn't apply.

 

In their recent triumphalism, the antis have shown their hand more clearly than ever, which helps us to show hunters how even their Remington 1100s may be next.

 

1) AWB: Did anyone see Ted Cruz's masterful demonstration in the senate hearing? He put up a picture of a Remington 750, then held up a piece of plastic, and explained how that turns a popular hunting rifle into an assault weapon. I always wondered how antis could miss this. Until I read a recent article talking about how 2000+ guns are getting through a "loophole" in the Feinstein bill. They pointed out the banned version of the Ruger Mini-14 and were outraged that the standard model is still legal. So, by getting people to accept that AWBs are evil, they turn our argument on its head and use it to reach the next step in their agenda: if certain semi-autos are illegal, then just removing a couple of cosmetic features is a devious workaround which must be stopped. This whole strategy is a brilliant two step manipulation of the public to get them to accept something they wouldn't accept all at once. Namely, to ban the Remington 750.

 

2) Two pieces of recent rhetoric: Obama telling people they can "keep their revolver for self defense" and Biden's idiocy about a double barrel shotgun. This isn't stupidity, it's their way of gradually dumbing down the definition of what's reasonable for self defense to exclude semi-autos.

 

As evidence of how well this is working, I have had multiple "friends" ask me, in hushed tones, if I own a "semi-automatic." Once I say yes, it doesn't matter how I try to explain, their ears close and their eyes glaze over. Just yesterday, I was explaining to someone how it's important sometimes to get a quick followup shot at a pheasant, and her reply was, "I thought hunting was supposed to be a sport."

[Vlad G 345]

As evidence of how well this is working, I have had multiple "friends" ask me, in hushed tones, if I own a "semi-automatic." Once I say yes, it doesn't matter how I try to explain, their ears close and their eyes glaze over. Just yesterday, I was explaining to someone how it's important sometimes to get a quick followup shot at a pheasant, and her reply was, "I thought hunting was supposed to be a sport."

 

To the first group answer them with a question, ask them to define semi-automatic. If they struggle with the definition or get it wrong, calmly and politely correct them and explain to them that their are being manipulated. Most don't actually understand the technology and build up fantasies in their minds based on movies and media.

 

To the second, ask her if a basketball player can attempt a second shot at the hoop if he is quick enough or if football players chase a ball they dropped. I