Right turn on red arrow question

[brucin 923]

I just received a ticket for passing a red arrow signal at an intersection. My first in almost 30 years BTW. I stopped then proceeded. The officer said that a red arrow is the same as a no turn on red sign.

 

I went back and checked the intersection and there is no "no right turn on red" sign.

 

Should I fight this? The only thing I can find says that a sign must be present to prohibit a right turn on red.

 

 

[NYMetsFan86 9]

..depends..how much time do you have to waste...

 

First of all i'm not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt...I wonder if they would end up telling you that the light up arrow may be classified as a sign of some kind. They could also argue that the color red when associated with traffic means "stop" or "do not proceed" the arrow simply indacting direction. ,.......do not proceed in said direction. Is the arrow on constantly or does it switch to green?

 

Though this does suck, it would suck more to fight it, waste your valuable time, and have to pay anyway.

 

How much is the ticket?

[brucin 923]

..depends..how much time do you have to waste...

 

First of all i'm not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt...I wonder if they would end up telling you that the light up arrow may be classified as a sign of some kind. They could also argue that the color red when associated with traffic means "stop" or "do not proceed" the arrow simply indacting direction. ,.......do not proceed in said direction. Is the arrow on constantly or does it switch to green?

 

Though this does suck, it would suck more to fight it, waste your valuable time, and have to pay anyway.

 

How much is the ticket?

The ticket is $85 but it could be 3 points which is what annoys me more than the money considering my driving record.

 

The offense listed is that I made a right turn in a prohibited zone but according to all my research so far there must be a sign prohibiting a right turn.

[CMJeepster 2,780]

Document it then fight it.

 

In the days before camera phones, a Wildwood meter maid gave me a ticket with 5 minutes remaining on the analog-style meter. 9 months later, the mayer threw it out. I don't back down easily.

[PK90 3,573]

A red arrow means you can not make a right on red.

 

BTW, If there was no arrow and the light was red, you MUST make a right turn after stopping according to the law.

[Lalo 13]

How much is the ticket for? If you take it to court the prosecutor might cut you a break and charge you with something less offensive but then you have to pay court fees, spend the time, etc. You might be able to fight it though, but is it worth your time and effort? Check out page 68 of the manual:

 

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Manuals/drivermanual.pdf

 

"Unless a No Turn on Red sign is posted, New Jersey law authorizes a right on red light after a motorist comes to a full stop and checks for traffic."

 

Unless you have a "right turn on green arrow only" or a "no turn on red" sign around, I would think it's ok based on what's on the manual.

[MidwestPX 172]

My understanding is a red arrow means you may not turn right on red.

[mickeyduck 0]

Go back & check the corner. Take pictures.

I bet there's some tiny tiny white sign stating you can't turn during school hours of 7:30-9:30 am or 2:30-4:30 pm blah blah blah....

check the right side shoulder before you reach the corner

[Howard 538]

I would do a little research, and then fight it if the law is on your side.  Please report back to us on what you find, as I routinely stop and then turn at these.

[DSD1026 48]

but there could be additional township statutes that add to the state laws.. you can maybe try to get the ticket changed to something more expensive but less points, but you will not actually get OUT of a ticket.  (IMO).  the officer can also say that you didnt wait enough time to turn..  this is NJ after all

[ChrisJM981 924]

but there could be additional township statutes that add to the state laws.. you can maybe try to get the ticket changed to something more expensive but less points, but you will not actually get OUT of a ticket. (IMO). the officer can also say that you didnt wait enough time to turn.. this is NJ after all

Township statutues? Ummm. No way Jose. We have a driver's manual for a reason. Uniformity for the entire state. Unless it says turn on green arrow only I say you're good to go. Then again I think CCW should be legal too. :unknw:

[plode 0]

I had an issue with a "No turn on red between 4pm and 10pm" the other day.  Cop was sitting in a parking spot near the intersection.

 

Problem was, I had just finished working on my car- an electrical issue in which I had the battery disconnected...and the clock was wrong.  I honestly had no idea what time it was. 

I went through it, then got pulled over.  I knew then it was after 4pm. 

 

I explained that without touching my cell phone(while driving)...I had no way of knowing the time, because the clock in my car was wrong(it said it was 11:45).  I told him I guessed and thought it was around 3 something. 

 

He laughed, and sent me on my way(and told me to set the correct time on my cars clock). 

[checko 180]

I'm from NYC where there's NO right on red unless specifically posted that you CAN. But I was always under the impression that red light arrows specifically tells you not to proceed until green

[mickeyduck 0]

oh yeah. cop's right.  NO turn on a red arrow light. either left or right.

look it up in the driver's manual.

don't waste your time attending traffic court unless you got nothing better to do...

[JTS1469 0]

I got one and after thinking about it I paid the 85. I would have to take at least a half-day from work and would have lost money. Then with the chance of losing I just went with the easy way. Which I believe is what they count on most people doing because the threat of points and loss of work. So they won that one and yes I felt violated

[djg0770 481]

BTW, If there was no arrow and the light was red, you MUST make a right turn after stopping according to the law.

 

Citation?  I could have used that in Newark a few wks ago.

[average joe 5]

Sorry, but the officer was right,  red arrow means no turn on right.   You can go to court and fight it,  but then in addition to the time lost, the fine, you will have to pay court costs also, because you used the courts precious time....

[Vini 0]

BTW, If there was no arrow and the light was red, you MUST make a right turn after stopping according to the law.

 

As far as I know it's you CAN make a right turn, not must. 

[ryan_j 0]

I wish the cops here would enforce proper right turn on red. People here just blow through the intersection even when the cross street has traffic a few feet away! They gotta make that turn before the other car that has the right of way prevents them from doing it ya know.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Can anyone cite the statute that says it is illegal to make a right on red with a red arrow? I was always of the impression that this was the law, and had an argument with someone about it a year or so ago. The only information we could find was that it's legal to turn, on a red arrow, after coming to a complete stop and it's safe to do so.

[NJKen 23]

A red right turn arrow is a dirty trick.  You are not allowed to make the right against the red arrow.  I work on traffic lights and have seen this only a couple of times.  The proper way to do it is to install a "no turn on red" blackout sign (the type you cant read when its not on).  Typically these would only exist on a complicated intersection or a five pointed intersection so they are often overlooked in day to day driving.  You can go to court to plea the ticket down to a non point violation but I really dont think you can beat it.

Good Luck

Ken

[Arbelest 29]

My understanding is the traffic signal is the same as any other traffic signal with red yellow and green lights, even though it is in the shape of an arrow, it is still a traffic signal.  I do not believe a sign has to be posted for that type of signal.  You could always go to the PD and talk with one of the court clerks, they usually have pretty good knowledge about tickets, wording of statutes, and how a judge will decide for traffic tickets. 

 

I also wouldn't worry about the points too much, your insurance may only drop your discount if you have one for not making a claim for something in X years.

[brucin 923]

After doing a lot of research I can find nothing in NJ law that differentiates an arrow from any other traffic signal.

 

This is the NJ statute 39:4-115

 

• 39:4-115. The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar: a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the "go" signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a "stop" or "caution" signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions, yielding to other vehicular traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made, and stopping and remaining stopped for pedestrians crossing the roadway within a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk, into which the driver is turning. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.

Since there is no sign and since I can find nothing that specifically mentions an arrow I am going to fight this in court.

If anyone can find a NJ statute that mentions an arrow please put the link here.

 

I spoke to a friend in LE and he feels it is a "pretty thin thread" that the officer has hung his hat on.

 

[plode 0]

 

After doing a lot of research I can find nothing in NJ law that differentiates an arrow from any other traffic signal.

 

This is the NJ statute 39:4-115

 

• 39:4-115. The driver of a vehicle or the motorman of a streetcar: a. intending to turn to the right or left at an intersection where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals or by a traffic or police officer, shall proceed to make either turn with proper care to avoid accidents and, except as provided in b. below, only upon the "go" signal unless otherwise directed by a traffic or police officer, an official sign or special signal; or b. intending to turn right at an intersection where traffic is controlled by a traffic control signal shall, unless an official sign of the State, municipality, or county authority having jurisdiction over the intersection prohibits the same, proceed to make the turn upon a "stop" or "caution" signal with proper care to avoid accidents after coming to a full stop, observing traffic in all directions, yielding to other vehicular traffic traveling in a direction in which the turn will be made, and stopping and remaining stopped for pedestrians crossing the roadway within a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk, into which the driver is turning. Both the approach for and the turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless such intersection is otherwise posted.

Since there is no sign and since I can find nothing that specifically mentions an arrow I am going to fight this in court.

If anyone can find a NJ statute that mentions an arrow please put the link here.

 

I spoke to a friend in LE and he feels it is a "pretty thin thread" that the officer has hung his hat on.

 

 

 

That sentence right before your "red" section explains it.  An arrow is a traffic control signal. 

39:4-8.13 - Definitions relative to traffic control signal monitoring systems; recording requirements

"Traffic control signal" means a device, whether manually, electrically, mechanically, or otherwise controlled, by which traffic is alternatively directed to stop and to proceed, and which has been approved by the Commissioner of Transportation in accordance with the "Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways."

[PK90 3,573]

As far as I know it's you CAN make a right turn, not must. 

 

As stated in the statute, "shall" means "will", not "may".

[djg0770 481]

As stated in the statute, "shall" means "will", not "may".

 

Yup - legal definition, used in many parts of law, both administrative as well as contract law.  ie "Contractor shall obey all OSHA regulations."

[illy 1]

From the NJ Traffic code:

39:4-116.  Special right or left turn
    Special right or left turn movements may be provided when approved by the director at intersections where traffic is controlled by traffic control signals, by incorporating an additional lens in the signal.  This additional lens shall be a green arrow lens and shall designate the special right or left turn movement by the direction of the arrow.

    When a green arrow lens is incorporated in a traffic control signal and the  signal is operating to control traffic at an intersection, vehicles shall make  turning movements in the direction of the arrow only when the lens is illuminated.

 

That means: No turn on red arrow, only on green arrow.

 

Note also that NJ law states:

SUBCHAPTER 3. STANDARDS FOR TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICES
16:27-3.1. Standards
(a) The basic principles concerning the design and usage of traffic control devices are
governed by the MUTCD. The MUTCD, adopted by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA)
as a national standard for all classes of highways, is adopted by reference herein. All
Department decisions with regard to traffic control devices shall be based on the MUTCD as
provided by N.J.S.A. 39:4-120.

 

The relevant section from the MUTCD states:

C.Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
1.Vehicular traffic facing a steady CIRCULAR RED signal indication, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, traffic shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication to proceed is displayed, or as provided below.

Except when a traffic control device is in place prohibiting a turn on red or a steady RED ARROW signal indication is displayed, vehicular traffic facing a steady CIRCULAR RED signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

 

2.Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication or other traffic control device permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is displayed.
When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication (NB: for instance a sign stating 'right turn permitted on red arrow if no pedestrians present' or 'right turn permitted on red arrow only after 6:00PM', etc), vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

 

3.Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian signal indication or other traffic control device, pedestrians facing a steady CIRCULAR RED or steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the roadway.

That means, a steady red arrow = no go UNLESS there is some other traffic control device stating that you can go.

Summary: A steady red arrow means you cannot turn in the direction of that arrow. The only exception is in the case of an additional device saying that you can.

[checko 180]

I'd plead down for a no points ticket and move on dude. 

[ryan_j 0]

I'd plead down for a no points ticket and move on dude. 

 

This

[Barms 98]

If you have hollow points in your car while you are driving to or from the range it gets even fuzzier

 

:-)