Smart Gun law kicks in now?

[ElmerFudd 0]

Guys, let me be the odd man out, let him sell the damn smart gun. It is not his fault that we have criminal politicians. We should not be stifling the sale of certain firearms (no matter how stupid) because our corrupt politicians decided to enact legislation that will honestly not survive scrutiny from SCOTUS.

 

I see where you are coming from man.  And his logic as presented in those links isn't wrong.  The truth is, if this law were not on the books in NJ I would hope that no one would lash out at this guy or Armatix at all.  People should have the choice to try out the new (likely more unreliable) technology if they so choose.  I would be interested to see and use it myself even though I wouldn't buy one.

 

That being said, knowing that giving people a choice about buying it, will take the power of choice away from NJ residents creates a significant moral dilemma that he seems to discount.  I feel that it may deserve more serious scrutiny than he really gives it.  And he also needs to give more realistic consideration to the ability to legislate for 2A rights or to overturn these kinds of statutes.

 

Does this pistol actually meet the State's definition of a "Personalized Handgun"?

 

I can think of at least a half dozen ways that this thing can be fired by persons that are not authorized to do so.

 

Based in the definition above, a "smart gun" is not automatically a "personalized handgun" in and of itself and in my opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, the firearm in question while being "smart" has not qualified itself as "personalized".

If the gun is operated via RFID (Radio Frequency Identification), that qualifies as "frequency tagging" which is listed in the statute.  There is nothing saying it has to be biologically linked to a person or group of people.  The argument that this doesn't qualify as a smart gun under the statute is a losing one at best...  

 

The argument that this qualifies as having the right to keep and bear arms "infringed" upon (pursuant to the 2nd Amendment w/ some Supremacy Clause flavoring)? Good to go.

[ElmerFudd 0]

consolidated above*

[JT Custom Guns 958]

Question about being sold in NJ.  Does this mean if the law went into affect, I could still buy a handgun from Buds and have my NJ FFL do the transfer?  Does the sale take place in NJ or KY?

 

 

transfer is in NJ..  Buds gun shop will not be on the P2P anywhere..

 

The sale of the gun and the transfer are two completely different things!

The sale was between the original seller and the buyer (in this case the seller would have been Buds).

 

The transfer is just a series of checks & balances that are in place to assure (according to State & federal law)

that the recipient is legally allowed to receive the weapon.

The P2P is not an invoice, nor a receipt of a SALE.

An FFL transfer is NOT a sale of weapon.........................

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

The sale of the gun and the transfer are two completely different things!

The sale was between the original seller and the buyer (in this case the seller would have been Buds).

 

The transfer is just a series of checks & balances that are in place to assure (according to State & federal law)

that the recipient is legally allowed to receive the weapon.

The P2P is not an invoice, nor a receipt of a SALE.

An FFL transfer is NOT a sale of weapon.........................

 

Jack:

 

But I think they are essentially asking if they can circumvent the smart gun law, once it is fully in effect, by purchasing on-line/out of state. The answer to that is NO. That is why it must be delivered by an in-state FFL. It is the same as buying in-state. Just as you cannot buy a non-compliant AR on-line and take possession of it through a NJ FFL, neither will you be able to buy a "dumb" gun.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[PK90 3,573]

Transfer = Purchase = Acquisition

 

Sent from an undisclosed location.

 

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Wouldn't the Heller decision smack this down right out of the gate? This law was written well before the ruling.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Wouldn't the Heller decision smack this down right out of the gate? This law was written well before the ruling.

 

I don't think that it would stand judicial review, but unless you get an injunction or a stay, you would have to deal with it while the challenge made its way through the courts. I'd rather it just not happen.

[siderman 1,138]

#1

The sale of the gun and the transfer are two completely different things!

The sale was between the original seller and the buyer (in this case the seller would have been Buds).

 

The transfer is just a series of checks & balances that are in place to assure (according to State & federal law)

that the recipient is legally allowed to receive the weapon.

The P2P is not an invoice, nor a receipt of a SALE.

An FFL transfer is NOT a sale of weapon.........................

#2

Jack:

 

But I think they are essentially asking if they can circumvent the smart gun law, once it is fully in effect, by purchasing on-line/out of state. The answer to that is NO. That is why it must be delivered by an in-state FFL. It is the same as buying in-state. Just as you cannot buy a non-compliant AR on-line and take possession of it through a NJ FFL, neither will you be able to buy a "dumb" gun.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

I choose option #1

[BCeagle 12]

Jack:

 

But I think they are essentially asking if they can circumvent the smart gun law, once it is fully in effect, by purchasing on-line/out of state. The answer to that is NO. That is why it must be delivered by an in-state FFL. It is the same as buying in-state. Just as you cannot buy a non-compliant AR on-line and take possession of it through a NJ FFL, neither will you be able to buy a "dumb" gun.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Thats exactly what I was asking.  As an attorney, I love trying to find loopholes but our NJ courts dont follow the laws as written anyway.  With the inability to buy handguns out of state like long guns, it makes getting around the law a real pain and the ways around it arent really worth it.   

 

I'll eventually pull all the case law but figured I had time before anything went into affect.  

[BCeagle 12]

Wouldn't the Heller decision smack this down right out of the gate? This law was written well before the ruling.

 

I agree, the idea of limiting us to a handgun that only shoots 22 is absurd, but until we get to a federal court, I cant see us getting an injunction.   

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Anyone see this article?  It's not particularly flattering to NJ gun owners.

 

"Gun Seller Backs Down on Smart Gun Plans After Threats"

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/threats-end-smart-gun/2014/05/03/id/569307/?ns_mail_uid=24451127&ns_mail_job=1567728_05032014&promo_code=8on8czmo

[monmouth 19]

Consider this,

 

Smart gun sells thus enacting the three year law. Fast forward 3 years and 1 month and the manufacturers go belly up. Can nj say "too bad, you need a smart gun and just have to wait till somebody produces it again"? See where this can go.

 

If you guys were really smart, start thinking decades into the future. You can buy a blemish lower here and a lower parts kits there, but understand this and allow it to ring loudly throughout your head, a tidal wave of bad things is coming to pro2nd nj owners.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Well, apparently, the MSM is not done with this story - A new article with the same  anti-gun BS.

 

Article:  NRA wants to take Smart Guns away

 

Funny, I didn't think they had enough of a foothold in the US for *anyone* to "take them away..." 

[magnawing 5]

So....If I don't have on the watch that matches the gun I grab in the middle of the night when someone breaks in....I may as well have a brick in my hand. (and who sleeps with a watch on???)

My wife can't protect herself with my gun unless I give the watch to her.

I'm assuming each gun will have it's own proprietary watch...which will most likely be hooked to the trigger guard when you're not wearing it.  Thief steals the gun and gets the watch to make it work...BONUS!!! 

With the fingerprint reader/grip reader/etc...I can't let a friend try out a gun that he's thinking of purchasing without reprogramming it...twice...once so he can shoot it then again so I can shoot it when he hands it back.

 

Or you wear 15-30(or more in some cases) rings/watches all the time.   (pssst.....wanna buy a watch?)

 

 

But....why would I expect them to apply logic to this particular topic when their logic was removed along with their spines as soon as they ran for office.

[MrSurfboard 1]

Anyone see this article?  It's not particularly flattering to NJ gun owners.

 

"Gun Seller Backs Down on Smart Gun Plans After Threats"

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/threats-end-smart-gun/2014/05/03/id/569307/?ns_mail_uid=24451127&ns_mail_job=1567728_05032014&promo_code=8on8czmo

"New Jersey Democratic state Sen. Loretta Weinberg, said Friday she would ask the legislature to drop the three-year mandate if the National Rifle Association, which opposes smart gun technology, promises not to block development and sale of the weapons."

 

I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.  Sure they might drop the mandate now, but once a few smart guns come on the market, I could see it being reintroduced and depending who is governor, passed once again into law.  

 

 

[magnawing 5]

Sure...she'll ask them.  Doesn't mean the question won't be posed like this...

 

"You guys don't want to repeal the smart gun law, do you?"

 

Hey, she asked...kinda...

 

 

It also says she'd ask them to drop the 3-year mandate...does that mean they'll put it into effect immediately instead?

 

 

It's all about semantics in today's political world.

[wooly bugger 1]

Wouldn't the Heller decision smack this down right out of the gate? This law was written well before the ruling.

I think we just learned yesterday that the lower courts can safely ignore the scrutiny standards outlined in Heller without consequence. Using the same reasoning in Drake, they can say that, "yes, 2A guarantees you the right to own guns in common use at the time, but the NJ legislature has used its 'predictive judgment' to determine that violating this provision is in the interest of public safety, therefore their 'compelling state interest' trumps your constitutional rights."

[DeerSlayer 241]

There is already a bill to repeal the "smart gun law" doubt it will be introduced with our curent Senate or house though. Assembly bill A113

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I think we just learned yesterday that the lower courts can safely ignore the scrutiny standards outlined in Heller without consequence. Using the same reasoning in Drake, they can say that, "yes, 2A guarantees you the right to own guns in common use at the time, but the NJ legislature has used its 'predictive judgment' to determine that violating this provision is in the interest of public safety, therefore their 'compelling state interest' trumps your constitutional rights."

 These are 2 completely different situations... We already have the ruling from Heller, and the state law is in direct violation of it, as it stands. A comparable example would be, say Drake was accepted and won... and NJ chose to keep the laws the same.... would the courts at that point really say... yeah we made this ruling and dont care if the state follow it in the name of public safety?

[ElmerFudd 0]

 These are 2 completely different situations... We already have the ruling from Heller, and the state law is in direct violation of it, as it stands. A comparable example would be, say Drake was accepted and won... and NJ chose to keep the laws the same.... would the courts at that point really say... yeah we made this ruling and dont care if the state follow it in the name of public safety?

 

it's not quite in direct opposition to Heller.  Heller was (in small part) about the right to possess a whole class of "arms" and whether that could be denied.  This is a prima facie case because technically, the class is not being denied, just an unjustifiably "unsafe" version of the "same tool" (this is how the Attorney General and NJ state legislature would be forced to frame it).  This may actually be seen as more similar to magazine capacity restrictions which, according, to proponents, allow you to use the same tool in a version that cannot be easily misused.  

 

The courts have yet to strike down magazine capacity restrictions though thankfully the repeal of the 7-round limit by the the Western Dis. of NY shows that there is a small level of restraint left in these lower courts to stop them from trouncing the 2nd completely.  

[njpilot 671]

Jim Gearhart talking about this now on 101.5

[CMJeepster 2,780]

Smart Gun  ARTICLE:  "N.J. 'smart gun' law may be reversed; South Jersey gun sellers oppose law"

 

http://www.nj.com/south/index.ssf/2014/05/nj_smart_gun_law_may_be_reversed_welcome_news_for_some_south_jersey_gun_sellers.html

 

"Lawmakers aren’t so sure smart guns will perform well, and that’s why law enforcement and soldiers are exempt, Viden charged.

“It’s a very stupid law that was passed in haste by legislators who didn’t know what they were talking about when they passed it,” he said."

 

------

And then we have Bryan Miller:  “The gun industry is the only industry that makes products without safety features. And that is unconscionable.”

 

------

 

Really?  The last time that I checked, there was no safety feature on my hammer, my favorite kitchen knife or the concrete block that I bought to anchor down my daughter's sandbox lid.

[plode 0]

This writer in my local paper is an idiot...so many lies and ignorance.  Comment if you'd like...not many people in the area that are big into guns enough to stand up to these idiots. http://www.shorenewstoday.com/snt/news/index.php/columns/at-large/52317-at-large-with-tom-williams-g-g-have-you-heard-about-the-smart-gun.html

[deerpark 83]

"New Jersey Democratic state Sen. Loretta Weinberg, said Friday she would ask the legislature to drop the three-year mandate if the National Rifle Association, which opposes smart gun technology, promises not to block development and sale of the weapons."

 

I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.  Sure they might drop the mandate now, but once a few smart guns come on the market, I could see it being reintroduced and depending who is governor, passed once again into law.  

 

 

 

I guess they dont understand that the NRA's pro-freedom stance is a reflection of the people.

 

Regardless, the NRA doesnt need to lobby against this technology.

 

No one with half a brain will buy it.   

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

Recent MSM articles on this topic.  With veto of A2006, I would not be surprised if the antis push on this flank now.

 

 

A New Jersey Law That's Kept Smart Guns Off Shelves Nationwide (NPR)

The Messy World of Smart Guns (NY Times)

 

Stephen Teret, the co-director of the Center for Law and the Public’s Health at Johns Hopkins University — and an expert on smart-gun technology — said that he thought the law would soon be irrelevant. “There will be a personalized gun sold very soon,” he told me. “It will be the Armatix gun that people are talking about.” He wouldn’t tell me who the seller would be, however.

[jackandjill 683]

I guess they dont understand that the NRA's pro-freedom stance is a reflection of the people.

 

Regardless, the NRA doesnt need to lobby against this technology.

 

No one with half a brain will buy it.   

NJ will MAKE people buy it, and that is the core of the problem.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

NJ will MAKE people buy it, and that is the core of the problem.

 

Exactly!  I don't think anyone has an objection to letting the free market choose whether or not it is a worthy technology.  The pushback comes from having it rammed down our throats, like so many of the other crappy firearms laws in this state.

[raz-0 1,259]

After done thougt and rereading of the statutes, I have doubts about it triggering the smart gun law. It requires the gun be personalized to an individual, and the armatix is simply locked up by a fancy key really, and whoever possesses the key can operate it. I'm not sure knowledge of a pin qualifies as personalized.