Transport - One reason why people don't understand the law

[voyager9 3,434]

 

The Heller decision put paid to the first precept and the McDonald decision did the same to the second. So all of NJ firearms law is based on premises that have been overturned by the Supreme Court. Why has not someone challenged all of NJ firearms law based on that???

 

Money

[Kevin125 4,772]

There were two precepts to the writing of NJ Firearms Law - One that firearms ownership, as defined in the second amendment, is a collective right, not an individual one. And, two, that federal law (the constitution) does not apply to the states.

 

The Heller decision put paid to the first precept and the McDonald decision did the same to the second. So all of NJ firearms law is based on premises that have been overturned by the Supreme Court. Why has not someone challenged all of NJ firearms law based on that???

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Because as some politicians say..... New Jersey is "Special".

 

Translation:  " New Jersey is where I hold political power... sooo.... it's about me..... not your rights."

[Kevin125 4,772]

So... has anyone else (besides vlad's AW issue) ran into an issue where they were getting bad info from someone who really should have known better?

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

So... has anyone else (besides vlad's AW issue) ran into an issue where they were getting bad info from someone who really should have known better?

 

Only all the time.  Bad info about gun laws is particularly rampant among LEO's.  (Obviously, not the ones on this board, but many others.)

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

So... has anyone else (besides vlad's AW issue) ran into an issue where they were getting bad info from someone who really should have known better?

 

Yep, from an FFL a few years back who told me:

 

- "You might be able to use hollowpoints at the range, but they're illegal for self defense in the home"

 

- "You can only carry around a long arm (cased & unloaded) in your car if you're a registered member of a shooting club"

 

- "Your social security number is absolutely required be supplied for a NICS check, otherwise they'll deny it"

 

I don't do business with that FFL any more.

[mipafox 438]

All the time. Including from an instructor.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Yep, from an FFL a few years back who told me:

 

- "You might be able to use hollowpoints at the range, but they're illegal for self defense in the home"

 

I don't do business with that FFL any more.

Holy sheet. I completely forgot that this was said as well. There was a 10 minute discussion of the illegality of using hollow points in the home for self defense. Cartridges like critical defense or something similar were legal though since they weren't hollow points. I didn't know one way or the other for sure, but it didn't sound right.

[Malsua 1,422]

Holy sheet. I completely forgot that this was said as well. There was a 10 minute discussion of the illegality of using hollow points in the home for self defense. Cartridges like critical defense or something similar were legal though since they weren't hollow points. I didn't know one way or the other for sure, but it didn't sound right.

 

Yeah, you're not allowed to use hollow points because you'll make the bad guy more dead.     Deadly force is deadly force.   If it's permitted, the method has very little to with it and I suspect as long as it's not overly cruel and causes suffering, you're good.  Tossing the guy into a wood chipper might get you in trouble, but then again, maybe not.  If he's threatening your life, you use what is available to you.

[WP22 1,558]

...

It wasn't my intention to start another "how do we transport" thread.  That horse was beaten to death, tossed off a bridge, run over by a train, burned to ashes and launched into space....

Take it easy, there big fella.

We're done with the horse, but barely started on the cow.

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

So... has anyone else (besides vlad's AW issue) ran into an issue where they were getting bad info from someone who really should have known better?

 

OK, try if you will to top this one:

 

Several years ago now, at the Outdoor Show held at Raritan Center's Expo Hall every January, I personally met with and spoke to a uniformed NJSP Sgt. from the Firearms Unit that was "working the Booth" that the NJSP had set-up for "community outreach".  The Sgt. was handing-out C.O.E.'s, a flier about how to apply for a NJ FID Card AND A WRITTEN COPY OF THE FIREARMS LAWS, with all of the EXCEPTIONS and EXEMPTIONS clearly spelled-out!  This blue paper multi-accordion-style folded hand-out had all of the subsections pertaining to everything that was illegal, especially assault weapons and Machine Guns.  At the very end of the pamphlet, and I'm paraphrasing, "NOTHING IN THIS PAMPHLET IS TO BE CONSTRUED AS ACTUAL LAW.  THE LAW IS BASED UPON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE AS WELL AS HOW EVER THE 21 COUNTY PROSECUTORS DEEM TO INTERPRET IT".  I still have a copy of the pamphlet filed with some P2P's somewhere, lol!

 

So there you have it.  A Sgt. from the Firearms Unit manning an information table and passing-out hand-outs printed with your tax money that basically says to the Reader, "This is sorta what we think MAY be the laws about guns"  "We're the NJSP Firearms Unit, and we think we know what the truth is, but we're really not allowed to say it, because the County Prosecutors (and the Judges they plead their cases to) can do what they wish".  And yes Kiddies, THIS WAS SEVERAL YEARS AGO!  

 

Would it surprise anyone here to learn that due to the ridicule of not being trusted to tell folks what the laws are, the NJSP stopped going to the Outdoor Show?

 

Yep, IT REALLY HAPPENED THAT WAY!  So who wants to try and top THIS?

 

Dave

[DeerSlayer 241]

OK, try if you will to top this one:

 

Several years ago now, at the Outdoor Show held at Raritan Center's Expo Hall every January, I personally met with and spoke to a uniformed NJSP Sgt. from the Firearms Unit that was "working the Booth" that the NJSP had set-up for "community outreach". The Sgt. was handing-out C.O.E.'s, a flier about how to apply for a NJ FID Card AND A WRITTEN COPY OF THE FIREARMS LAWS, with all of the EXCEPTIONS and EXEMPTIONS clearly spelled-out! This blue paper multi-accordion-style folded hand-out had all of the subsections pertaining to everything that was illegal, especially assault weapons and Machine Guns. At the very end of the pamphlet, and I'm paraphrasing, "NOTHING IN THIS PAMPHLET IS TO BE CONSTRUED AS ACTUAL LAW. THE LAW IS BASED UPON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE AS WELL AS HOW EVER THE 21 COUNTY PROSECUTORS DEEM TO INTERPRET IT". I still have a copy of the pamphlet filed with some P2P's somewhere, lol!

 

So there you have it. A Sgt. from the Firearms Unit manning an information table and passing-out hand-outs printed with your tax money that basically says to the Reader, "This is sorta what we think MAY be the laws about guns" "We're the NJSP Firearms Unit, and we think we know what the truth is, but we're really not allowed to say it, because the County Prosecutors (and the Judges they plead their cases to) can do what they wish". And yes Kiddies, THIS WAS SEVERAL YEARS AGO!

 

Would it surprise anyone here to learn that due to the ridicule of not being trusted to tell folks what the laws are, the NJSP stopped going to the Outdoor Show?

 

Yep, IT REALLY HAPPENED THAT WAY! So who wants to try and top THIS?

 

Dave

I totally believe you Dave. Here read this webpage from this link. Especially the first paragraph and the second to last paragraph. It's the same NJSP disclaimer that advises the public not to listen to what the NJSP tell you, & to seek answers from legal counsel. http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_ag2.html

[mikeyjones 88]

Since we're going down the path of misinformation at gun stores.

 

Recent trip to a well-regarded store in North Jersey, heard this gem come behind the counter:

 

"If you get tried for murder in a self-defense scenario, every bullet shot out of your gun is an extra 2 years in jail. So if you get 20 years for the actual killing, you'll get 2 more years for every extra bullet you fire.  That's why I only keep my home defense guns loaded with 2 bullets."

 

 

This is from someone who claimed to work for the Sheriff's department - that was the source of his information.

 

What a genius.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Take it easy, there big fella.

We're done with the horse, but barely started on the cow.

 

 

LOL....

[Kevin125 4,772]

Yeah, you're not allowed to use hollow points because you'll make the bad guy more dead.     Deadly force is deadly force.   If it's permitted, the method has very little to with it and I suspect as long as it's not overly cruel and causes suffering, you're good.  Tossing the guy into a wood chipper might get you in trouble, but then again, maybe not.  If he's threatening your life, you use what is available to you.

 

Right.  If a big dude is trying to come in my house and come after me with a knife and I happen to have an aluminum bat and I take his head off with it, I figure it's all good.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Since we're going down the path of misinformation at gun stores.

 

Recent trip to a well-regarded store in North Jersey, heard this gem come behind the counter:

 

"If you get tried for murder in a self-defense scenario, every bullet shot out of your gun is an extra 2 years in jail. So if you get 20 years for the actual killing, you'll get 2 more years for every extra bullet you fire. That's why I only keep my home defense guns loaded with 2 bullets."

 

 

This is from someone who claimed to work for the Sheriff's department - that was the source of his information.

 

What a genius.

That's why I keep 30 handgun's loaded with 2 rounds each throughout the house

[leahcim 680]

OK, try if you will to top this one:

 

Several years ago now, at the Outdoor Show held at Raritan Center's Expo Hall every January, I personally met with and spoke to a uniformed NJSP Sgt. from the Firearms Unit that was "working the Booth" that the NJSP had set-up for "community outreach".  The Sgt. was handing-out C.O.E.'s, a flier about how to apply for a NJ FID Card AND A WRITTEN COPY OF THE FIREARMS LAWS, with all of the EXCEPTIONS and EXEMPTIONS clearly spelled-out!  This blue paper multi-accordion-style folded hand-out had all of the subsections pertaining to everything that was illegal, especially assault weapons and Machine Guns.  At the very end of the pamphlet, and I'm paraphrasing, "NOTHING IN THIS PAMPHLET IS TO BE CONSTRUED AS ACTUAL LAW.  THE LAW IS BASED UPON WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE AS WELL AS HOW EVER THE 21 COUNTY PROSECUTORS DEEM TO INTERPRET IT".  I still have a copy of the pamphlet filed with some P2P's somewhere, lol!

 

So there you have it.  A Sgt. from the Firearms Unit manning an information table and passing-out hand-outs printed with your tax money that basically says to the Reader, "This is sorta what we think MAY be the laws about guns"  "We're the NJSP Firearms Unit, and we think we know what the truth is, but we're really not allowed to say it, because the County Prosecutors (and the Judges they plead their cases to) can do what they wish".  And yes Kiddies, THIS WAS SEVERAL YEARS AGO!  

 

Would it surprise anyone here to learn that due to the ridicule of not being trusted to tell folks what the laws are, the NJSP stopped going to the Outdoor Show?

 

Yep, IT REALLY HAPPENED THAT WAY!  So who wants to try and top THIS?

 

Dave

Read Brian Aitken's "Blue Tent Sky" and you will see what goes on between the prosecutor and the judge and their instructions to constrain the jury to their desired outcome.

[Kevin125 4,772]

@leachim: Some judges have a God complex.

 

 

So this is the law on hollow points. Again, the people adding to the law read the "further exempts" portion like it was the only portion. It says I can possess it at home. Plus the exempted places/purposes. Since the law only prohibits things and doesn't enumerate what's "allowed", this tells me I can use HPs for home defense in situations where any other sort of non-banned ammunition can be used or for any other legal purpose on my property.

 

I'll be more prepared for the next conversation.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."

N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;

2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;

3.A person going directly to a target range, and;

4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

 

[glockamole 0]

I been moving the last few days from my apartment into a house. I have a few things left at my apartment. A vacuum, roll of paper towels, cleaning spray and a box of hollow points. Moving is not exempt so...

[mipafox 438]

Sounds like I'm going to jail for an extra 198 years.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

There were two precepts to the writing of NJ Firearms Law - One that firearms ownership, as defined in the second amendment, is a collective right, not an individual one. And, two, that federal law (the constitution) does not apply to the states.

 

The Heller decision put paid to the first precept and the McDonald decision did the same to the second. So all of NJ firearms law is based on premises that have been overturned by the Supreme Court. Why has not someone challenged all of NJ firearms law based on that???

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

very good question. perhaps the answer may be  that more money is to be made treating the illness(defending those that have inadvertently broken our illegal laws) than there is to be made in actually curing the illness(getting our illegal laws overturned/eliminated?

[1LtCAP 4,264]

The people who like our firearms laws, whoever they are, will say..."these laws don't prevent you from possessing a firearm, they simply say that to do so, you need this card."  And judges will support them.

 

Try to tell them that about voting.  "Voter ID laws don't prevent citizens from voting, they just say you have to prove who you are to be allowed to vote.  We'll even give you an ID for free if you can prove your identity and citizenship status."  

 

...Then you will see absolute hysteria unfold.

 

they do interfere with our right to keep arms.....a right delayed(waiting to get that fpid) is a right denied. a right restricted is not a right, but a privilege. is now the time for my favorite wall-o-text?

 the laws here do prevent us from baring arms......we cannot possess a loaded firearm outside of the exemptions.......

[1LtCAP 4,264]

I been moving the last few days from my apartment into a house. I have a few things left at my apartment. A vacuum, roll of paper towels, cleaning spray and a box of hollow points. Moving is not exempt so...

so you're gonna do the responsible thing(in the states eyes) and leave em there?

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I totally believe you Dave. Here read this webpage from this link. Especially the first paragraph and the second to last paragraph. It's the same NJSP disclaimer that advises the public not to listen to what the NJSP tell you, & to seek answers from legal counsel. http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_ag2.html

LOL, yeah I've seen that page before too.  You just can't make this shit up!  What other militarized Police Force in the Country can print laws on their own web site and then warn against following them?

 

How many felonies should I commit tomorrow?  Let me count the ways.............

[Smokin .50 1,907]

so you're gonna do the responsible thing(in the states eyes) and leave em there?

^^^He can always ship them to himself, at his new address, lol!  "If it fits, IT SHIPS", lol!

[glockamole 0]

so you're gonna do the responsible thing(in the states eyes) and leave em there?

That what the state obviously wants right??? I have till Sunday to get everything out. I can take them to a range, park and then turn around and go directly to my new home. Also could take them into PA, turn around and head to the new house... At least we get some options...

[JohnnyB 4,326]

That what the state obviously wants right??? I have till Sunday to get everything out. I can take them to a range, park and then turn around and go directly to my new home. Also could take them into PA, turn around and head to the new house... At least we get some options...

Another option is to ask yourself how many times you took a ride in your car. Then count how many times you have been pulled over and had your car searched by a LEO.

So I say "stop being a victim of the paranoia that NJ gun laws creates"!  Put your ammo in the trunk and take it to your new home!!! You are leaving your residence to go to your residence!!!

Obviously you have a right to be in your current residence till Sunday. You also have a right to be in your new residence, they overlap each other so you are going from your residence to your residence!!!

How are you violating NJ statutes because you happen to be transporting from an exempted place, your home, to an exempted place, your home??? 

 

Would it be better to leave the ammo in your old location if a convicted Felon were the new resident?

 

 Just use common sense.  It goes a long way!

[leahcim 680]

The likelihood of getting stopped is extremely low, the likelihood of PC and search if you are stopped is even less.

However, if you believe Aitken's book, if this infinitesimal chance does somehow occur--and you get an officer who does not understand the law, it may not end well.

According to AItken, the jury was instructed by the judge that, according to his determination, moving exemption did not apply and they were ordered to not even consider it in any of the three counts.  I think they came back a few times to ask to see the actual law themselves, judge repeatedly told them that he had already determined that it did not apply, and they should not worry about it.

In the appeal, two counts were dropped (on by moving exemption, the other by lack of proof on high-cap mag), but the HP ultimately stood because the court determined there was no moving exemption for HP!

 

So drive careful

[10X 3,301]

I been moving the last few days from my apartment into a house. I have a few things left at my apartment. A vacuum, roll of paper towels, cleaning spray and a box of hollow points. Moving is not exempt so...

Fortunately, taking them from the apartment to the range is legal.      As is taking them from the range to the house.    Just sayin'...

 

Much easier than taking them to the range in PA.  And then stopping off at a Pennsylvania post office before returning home.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

@leachim:  Some judges have a God complex.

 

 

So this is the law on hollow points.  Again, the people adding to the law read the "further exempts" portion like it was the only portion.   It says I can possess it at home.  Plus the exempted places/purposes.  Since the only prohibits things and doesn't enumerate what's "allowed", this tells me I can use HPs for home defense in situations where any other sort of non-banned ammunition can be used or for any other legal purpose on my property.

 

I'll be more prepared for the next conversation.

EXACTLY!

 

Like I've been saying all along, one has to READ the laws with the proper punctuation to obtain the EXACT meaning.  Also, I can't locate any 2C Statutes that ALLOW ME TO BREATHE AIR, so does that therefore infer that breathing air is illegal because it is NOT specifically written into the laws as something WE CAN DO?  What I'm trying to say to you and all here (through this obvious example of critical thinking) is that you have to apply the same standard you just did to all of the NJ gun laws.  "A + B = C" :  A says it's illegal, B is the exemption(s) that cover the legal use, and C is the net TRUTH.

 

Critical thinking TEST:  Take your HP's outta yer gun and replace them with what Cops carry off-duty, then go take your naked, unloaded gun (secured in the trunk of your sedan) to "other land or property owned or possessed by him".  You pull-up to a vacant lot or a wooded lot, retrieve your unloaded, secured sidearm, load it with off-duty ammo and PATROL YOUR PROPERTY checking on the condition/sale-ability/improvements, presence of trespassers, etc.  Legal or not?  What if you have 2, 3, 5 inspections to do, and you drive DIRECTLY to the next one from the last one just visited?  

 

NJ Law is like Chess.  SEE THE WHOLE BOARD!  Laws were written centuries ago giving land owners more rights than mere peasants.  Critical thinking lets us see the trickle-down, hidden exemptions allowed to land owners.......  Have a beach house?  Keep guns there for self-protection?  Of course everybody does it!  Hurricane Sandy proved it!  Cops told folks to transport their guns off the shoreline so they wouldn't come into the hands of looters.  No millionaires with multi-million dollar beach homes were arrested for keeping their gun collection in their Lexus and Mercedes SUV's.  Parked on high ground.  I wonder why that is?  How many residences can a land owner own?  Doesn't say in the firearms laws, does it?  NOW the light bulb is lit and shining brightly!

 

SEE THE WHOLE BOARD!

 

Dave

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Another option is to ask yourself how many times you took a ride in your car. Then count how many times you have been pulled over and had your car searched by a LEO.

So I say "stop being a victim of the paranoia that NJ gun laws creates"!  Put your ammo in the trunk and take it to your new home!!! You are leaving your residence to

this.

 

 just don't make any calls to anyone suggesting that you're depressed..............