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david8613

Top optics ready guns, what do you have in your toy box?

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I'm going to purchase an optics ready gun, i was looking at the glock g45 mos, and also cz p10c optics ready. I already purchased my optics a holosun hs507c. Im going optics ready with modular plates instead of a milled slide. Im thinking you have more future proofing with modular plates. things change all the time and being modular optics ready gives you more options then a milled slide. I am seeing they are so many more guns on the market nowadays that are optics ready with plates like the canik TP9SF. beretta apx combat, Walter ppq, S&W m&p etc. etc. What is your optics ready gun and what optics are you running? What do you like about it, or not like about it?

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I like the optic melted into the slide as low as possible. In my experience, the lower the dot, the less of a learning curve as the dot is closer to where you are used to finding the iron sights on a presentation. 

Because of that, I prefer a standard pistol milled specifically for my chosen optic, rather than something like the Glock MOS or other “optics ready pistol” that requires mounting plates and/or shims that raise the optic higher than necessary.

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5 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Im probably going to direct mill an aimpoint ACRO into my VP9.

Oh man you gotta post pics of that when you put that together, that sounds like an awesome pairing. I also have a vp9 and may go milled on that after I get my feet wet with a optics ready set up. Its seems like optics on hand guns is the future and will be the standard. 

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41 minutes ago, david8613 said:

Oh man you gotta post pics of that when you put that together, that sounds like an awesome pairing. I also have a vp9 and may go milled on that after I get my feet wet with a optics ready set up. Its seems like optics on hand guns is the future and will be the standard. 

If you already have the optic and a pistol, why don’t you try a dovetail mount. That’s the easiest and cheapest way to dip your toe in the MRDS pool.

Straight rear sight replacement mount:

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product3.php?pid=RM44

Or with iron sights built in:

https://dueckdefense.com/shop/handguns/glock/rbu-for-trijicon-rmr-glk/

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I first went with a dovetail mount for a Trijicon RMR on a S&W MP9Pro. Loved it, but wanted to put the dot as low as possible.  I had the slide carved up for it. Much faster target acquisition, and easy to switch between the optic pistol and my other iron site pistols, as my sight picture is the same. 

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The question I would add is... "Do you even need an optic?"  Or are you doing it cause all the cool kids are doing this nowadays?

There are a number of reasons to mount a dot such as you have poor eye sight and have a tough time to align the sights, or want a quicker way to shoot at distance (i.e. beyond 25 yards).

Otherwise, if your eyesight is fine, and you are mostly engaging or shooting at 15 yards or so...  it is far more proficient and would likely say faster for most gun owners to use regular sights and work on point-shooting instinctively.  

By introducing the optics, you are fixing one problem but introducing another... over reliance and searching for the dot.

Then, there are always questions as to longevity of the gun with the slide mounted optics.  You are adding extra mass which creates its own challenges.  This is why for gun games, those who can, generally mount an optic to a mount to a frame.

If you are set on getting an optic... then yes, best solution is to have the slide milled so you can mount the optic deeper so you can cowitness the sights.  Would really suck if your battery dies and your optic is blocking the pistol sights.  This also lowers the added weight.

In general I would recommend you shoot a gun with a mounted optic to figure out if it is for you or not.  Then figure out whether optics ready platform is necessary.

If you are thinking of saving money, then yes, spending money on an optics ready gun will save you money versus buying a gun and then sending it off to get cut. 

There is no right or wrong, merely options.

 

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6 hours ago, Maksim said:

The question I would add is... "Do you even need an optic?"  Or are you doing it cause all the cool kids are doing this nowadays?

There are a number of reasons to mount a dot such as you have poor eye sight and have a tough time to align the sights, or want a quicker way to shoot at distance (i.e. beyond 25 yards).

Otherwise, if your eyesight is fine, and you are mostly engaging or shooting at 15 yards or so...  it is far more proficient and would likely say faster for most gun owners to use regular sights and work on point-shooting instinctively.  

By introducing the optics, you are fixing one problem but introducing another... over reliance and searching for the dot.

I love that post...

My belief is that we get to hung up on the latest and greatest gadget, and sometimes forget the basics and what is the most simple. The old saying "KISS", (keep it simple, stupid) is a good rule.

For me, I learned to shoot as a kid over irons, one reason, because we didn't have fancy optics back then. Even now, where I can afford to buy any optic available, I still choose to shoot over irons when ever possible, and not rely on optics, even if they can be of help. I feel it's better to try improve shooting over irons then taking the easier route with optics. And like Max said, trying to improve my "instincts" versus relying on a electronic gadget.

Main reason, my eyes will usually always work, but if unplanned "situation" arises, do I want to put my faith in the hopes the battery is good in the optic and it will turn on and work as it should and have over reliance on it?

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Shooting a carry oriented optic on a pistol HAS A STEEP LEARNING CURVE! If your not willing to embark on that, pass! I shot a red dot in IPSC competition in the late 90's. I always theorised one day it would make the jump to carry. Took longer than I expected. But I figured that all my dot experience would make it an easy transition for me. I was wrong! The abbreviated window of carry optics changes the dynamic quite a bit. So there is considerable technique to learn. But it would seem that once you do, your accuracy and speed can exceed what you can do with irons for most people. But there are a few specific places they become a real advantage. Eyesight was already mentioned. I'm finding myself in that category. My eyes are at a stage where I just cant bring the front sight into focus. If my arms were 4 inches longer I'd be good.  Im supposed to get progressive lenses but I dont know what complications thats going to add. :/ But another area that a dot has a GIANT advantage over irons is low light situations. Here there is just no comparison in my opinion. So yes Im sure there is the crowd that just follows the trends without even understanding why the cool kids are doing it. Thats with everything. But there are valid reasons and advantages to the pursuit. 

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As a side note, instinctive shooting is bad juju. But before this devolves into an unintended conversation, clarification is in order. I would bet that Maks does not actually mean instinctive shooting. If you were actually instinctive shooting you would have no reference points. So let me explain what I mean. I once shot a stage at an IPSC match and I forgot to turn my dot on. Luckily the stage had no really far shots. But I didnt stop to turn it on even though my pistol had no irons. I had a few C's etc etc but I had zero mikes. Did I shoot it instinctive? Absolutely not! I had a big giant ghost ring to index off of. There are some that are proponents of aiming every shot. And given their credentials, I am not going to argue the point with them. But I do know that I can shoot fast and accurately enough, "seeing what I need to see". So it might not be a full front sight picture but I am still using other parts of the gun as a sight of some sorts. It just might not be the actual sights that im using. This is not instinctive shooting to me as I am still indexing off of something. So I do not have  a concern if my dot failed. I really like suppressor height sights to begin with so cowitt will not be an issue for me. 

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I ran an RMR on an FN and never liked it. I find that adding an optic on a pistol and or a laser really adds nothing to ones shooting skills and is just another level of distraction.  However, I agree with those who advocate a milled out slide v plates , if you go with a pistol optic so that you can mount the optic as low as possible to co-witness. I think one is better served by more range time and practice that the cost involved in going optic on a pistol. 

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Interesting points @Shane45 and @Maksim.  On one hand, I feel standard sights are fine and you really don't need an optic.  Plus they are expensive.  And the technology is still new.

On the other hand, optics on all other firearms aide in accuracy, speed and consistency.  

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Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics did a pretty good wrote up on RDS use on pistols. If you are at all interested in trying one, you should really give this a read. It’s long, but brings up some great points and backs it with his experience.

http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_50a7c57f2d284e53bca8584a7f7925b1.pdf

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43 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Interesting points @Shane45 and @Maksim.  On one hand, I feel standard sights are fine and you really don't need an optic.  Plus they are expensive.  And the technology is still new.

On the other hand, optics on all other firearms aide in accuracy, speed and consistency.  

There is certainly a place for optics in all other guns... heck, past a 100 yards give me an optic any day of the week.

What was eye opening, pun intended, was going out to to FTW where we were finding and shooting steel painted various colors at ranges between 200 and 2,500 yards.

While folks were generally able to spot steel no problem out to 400 or so, I had a really tough time finding green plates without glasses in particular.  So I would gladly take a light magnification optic on a rifle or anything I plan on shooting at past 100 yards... and in either case, you would need far more precision thee with regular sights.  So optics solve a problem.

With handguns... unless your gun is set up specifically for the dot... i.e. compensator, slight lightening to make the thing run super flat... yes, you do have the dot that helps with those who have vision issues... BUT the price is you are hunting for the dot.

Take a look at USPSA open division... there is a reason why most of the shooters still use a C-More on a frame mounted slide.  Huge window, less muzzle flip when mounted on frame.

The folks who shoot USPSA Open with frame mounted optics are generally not as successful as the frame mounted optics, (until the new Trijicon SRO) generally have much smaller windows and the dot hunting takes quite a bit more time.

Granted, the optics are used in Optics Carry division... BUT that is because the whole game is slide mounted optics and gamers gonna game.

So for me... I completely understand people wanting to use slide mounted optics and it is certainly the cool thing to do now... but for most people with no vision issues, at standard engagement distances of out to say 25 or 50 yards... I think these are a crutch.  

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12 hours ago, Maksim said:

There is certainly a place for optics in all other guns... heck, past a 100 yards give me an optic any day of the week.

What was eye opening, pun intended, was going out to to FTW where we were finding and shooting steel painted various colors at ranges between 200 and 2,500 yards.

While folks were generally able to spot steel no problem out to 400 or so, I had a really tough time finding green plates without glasses in particular.  So I would gladly take a light magnification optic on a rifle or anything I plan on shooting at past 100 yards... and in either case, you would need far more precision thee with regular sights.  So optics solve a problem.

With handguns... unless your gun is set up specifically for the dot... i.e. compensator, slight lightening to make the thing run super flat... yes, you do have the dot that helps with those who have vision issues... BUT the price is you are hunting for the dot.

Take a look at USPSA open division... there is a reason why most of the shooters still use a C-More on a frame mounted slide.  Huge window, less muzzle flip when mounted on frame.

The folks who shoot USPSA Open with frame mounted optics are generally not as successful as the frame mounted optics, (until the new Trijicon SRO) generally have much smaller windows and the dot hunting takes quite a bit more time.

Granted, the optics are used in Optics Carry division... BUT that is because the whole game is slide mounted optics and gamers gonna game.

So for me... I completely understand people wanting to use slide mounted optics and it is certainly the cool thing to do now... but for most people with no vision issues, at standard engagement distances of out to say 25 or 50 yards... I think these are a crutch.  

Additional benefits to frame mounted are that the dot, because it’s not reciprocating, is easier to track and faster on target. Also the dot isn’t getting pounded by recoil and will last longer. 

The C-More dots typically used are  huge in comparison to even a RMR. There probably wouldn’t be enough room on a typical slide to mount one. 

Carry optics is nothing more than the equivalent of FTR in rifle shooting to Palma class. Optics are easier (with practice) and faster. A lot nicer on aging eyes as well  

For what it’s worth, optics on pistols aren’t new. Not at all. Bullseye shooters have been using them for years. Miniaturization has finally caught up and prices are now acceptable to more folks. That’s why they’re as prevalent as they are now. 

It really is another golden age of guns. 

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On 5/28/2019 at 12:49 PM, Shane45 said:

Shooting a carry oriented optic on a pistol HAS A STEEP LEARNING CURVE! If your not willing to embark on that, pass! 

Truer words were never spoken. If you are just going to use this as a range gun - stand in one place and shoot at stationary targets, fine - just about any combo will do. But, if you intend to try some gun games, or actually carry this as a defensive hand gun, there is a huge learning curve and you have to devote yourself to lots of practice to get even semi-proficient. I shoot IDPA and USPSA and I am amazed at how well the people shooting carry optics do - but in examining who they are, you'll find that most are top-tier shooters and do put in a ton of practice.

I am at a point where I have become a collector of arms - not necessarily a user of all I purchase. I bought this (P226 Elite Rx SAO) because it was at a good priced and I wanted to try an optic.

and6pd.jpg

I have two revolvers with red dots, but they have only been used for static shooting. I was in for a rude awakening when I attempted to use this at an IDPA match - went right back to my revolvers (but not looking to get rid of it).

So, if you are going to get a handgun with an optic, and plan to use it for anything other than static range use, be ready to dedicate yourself to a lot of practice.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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I recieved my holosun 507c yesterday really nice quality. I have not placed it on gun yet, but you guys are absolutely right, finding that dot is not easy at all, I can see the learning curve involved. Window and controls are so tiny my big fingers have trouble pressing them. The build on it looks very robust. Very nice features too.

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On 5/31/2019 at 11:37 AM, High Exposure said:

Check out the ALG 6 Second Mount if you are looking at frame mounted optic choice for a defensive-use pistol.

Marry that to a Raven “Bucket of Justice” holster and you have a decent carry setup.

Does ALG still manufacture it? It's been out of stock on their site.

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16 hours ago, david8613 said:

Looks good! How does the comp feel? Do you notice it shooting flatter with it? I ended up ordering a cz p10c suppressor ready, gonna get it milled to put a holosun 507c. 

Thanks.

I took her out today.  The comp is awesome.  It's for sure flatter and pretty annoying, which works for me.  I like it a lot.  I was hitting steel on the berm at Cherry Ridge 10 out of 10 with a breath between shots.  An absolute hoot to shoot.  

I like the Vortex a bunch.  I got a great deal on it and even my buddy that's running a Triji RMR was impressed by it.  The window is a nice size and the frame is very thin so there is very little obstruction when shooting.  I'd recommend it for sure.   I also leveraged it against some wood to clear a couple of crappy reloads from the breech and it did just fine.  

Good luck with the CZ.  

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My cz p10c suppressor ready came in, gonna pick it up tomorrow cant wait. I think I'm gonna send the slide to jagerworks for milling work to put a holosun 507c, but I'm wondering if I can keep my suppressor hight sights, the rear sight has a ramp and takes alot of space on the slide. Looks like this. 

wm_12846160.jpg

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