Non-Hollowpoint? (Long)

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I know that Hornady's "Critical Defense" offerings pass muster as not hollow points as did Federal's Expanding Full Metal Jacket (no longer made) and Corbon PowR ball (availability unknown). These three offerings were cited by name in a 2009 NJSP memo. That was almost 15 years ago and while ammunition has advanced I'm not sure the ruling has kept up. 

The ATFE (Association of firearm and toolmark examiners) supplied the NJSP the definition of a hollow point bullet as, quite simply as: A bullet with a cavity in the nose to facilitate expansion. It was based on this definition that the three offerings above were blessed for NJ use.

How much of a cavity does there need to be? Hornady pretty much owns this market right now with the original Critical Defense and Critical Duty (the latter not specifically named but in essence identical to CD except for bullet weight).

I ask this in light of Winchester's new offering: USA Ready Defense ammunition which follows Hornady's lead by using a polymer insert in the bullet nose. However, the insert is set back slightly in the nose cavity and is not a solid piece, but rather has petals that work with the skived bullet jacket to insure expansion. Does this pass muster as not a hollow point? Will it take a court case to decide that?

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Part 2

Given that I post here so infrequently, I need to get as much said in each post as I can. Recently I e-mailed the following to every member of both NJ Senate and NJ House Law & Public Safety Committees...

NEW JERSEY FIREARMS LAW ENDANGERS CITIZENS

Like it or not, with the U. S. Supreme Court’s decision in the Bruen case, the number of legally armed civilians in New Jersey has increased exponentially. With that in mind, there is currently a law on the books with which all New Jersey residents should be concerned. It has to do with prohibited types of ammunition. New Jersey is the only state in the union that has a law which prohibits hollow point ammunition.

This law is patently misguided and a danger to all, even more so now that there are more guns among us. The problem arose when someone conflated hollow point bullets with the infamous Teflon-coated, KTW bullets, improperly dubbed “cop-killer bullets”. The two bullet types are diametrically opposed in their purpose and performance. The KTW bullets were invented for  penetration of hard targets like automotive glass or doors and were to be used by the police in the case of barricaded subjects. The purpose of hollow point ammunition is to limit penetration by expansion of the projectile. This facilitates the total transfer of energy within the target. This effectively eliminates whatever threat existed, while negating any collateral damage caused by over penetration.

With the increase of civilian arms on the street, which are most likely loaded with high penetration, full metal jacketed ammunition, due to the prohibition of hollow points, the potential for over penetration and collateral damage is greatly increased. Most police departments are issued hollow point ammunition for this very reason.

This situation is easily remedied. The terms “hollow nose” and “dum-dum” need to be removed from the verbiage of statute 2C:39-3(f) thus allowing use of hollow point ammunition. This should be a bipartisan issue that will protect all NJ residents from the chance of harm brought about from this misinformation.

I didn't receive even an acknowledgement, let alone a form letter or constructive reply from any of them. Kind of tells you where we stand in their list of priorities. This should be a no-brainer (perfect for politicians), non-partisan issue, but....crickets.

That's all for now.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

 

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

For what it's worth (not much legally speaking) the new Winchester offering would not be permissible under NJ's ban on hollowpoints.

The definition does not specifically say a single cavity, and it looks like the Winchester round has 6 cavities. Also, the plug does not reach all the way to the nose of the bullet, so I think it fails there too.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

It was good to see you again the other week, Bob.  I love the color of your car.

This is an interesting topic and one that I hope you will keep us posted on if there's any movement.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

would it be worth the effort for one of the 2a orgs or lawyers to go after the state on that ban? after all police carry them. and so does pretty close to every other state(allows them that is)

seems like one of those "common use" things

[KurtC 42]

It would not surprise me if NJ bans FMJ as well as hollow points.   

I doubt if any of the legislators even know what actual Dum-Dum bullets are. The term hasn't been used for a hundred years. 

Back in the last century, I carried Glaser Safety Slugs.  First blue, then silver.  When Federal came out with the EFMJ, I switched to them.   I still have more than enough 9mm and 45acp stashed away, as well as a box of 200gr 45 bullets for hand loading. 

[brucin 923]

3 hours ago, Pizza Bob said:

due to the prohibition of hollow points, the potential for over penetration and collateral damage is greatly increased.

That's a feature of the law, not a bug. They are salivating at A permit holder injuring a non combatant with overpenetration so they can say see we told you it would be the wild west.

[Tunaman 549]

Use what LE uses.  Speer gold Dot G2.  I sent a letter to the Attorney Generals office as i couldnt get through to the NJSP Firearms unit.  I did receive a reply back a few days later from the NJSPFU stating that if it is filled with elastomer(plastic) it is not considered a hollow point.  I will be carrying this letter on my phone in case I ever get a LE that is not informed. I will be carrying these G2's from now own.  God help anyone that gets hit with one of these.  There won't be any over penetration here.  They work like they were designed to.

[124gr9mm 859]

Is there a particular reason people who want hollow-point ammo don't want to use Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty/Defense?

Yes, I get that gun guys want to use 'muh special brand because ballistics/fps, etc, etc', but with all of the absurd hoops in NJ with 2A stuff, it seems like a no-brainer to go with rounds that have already been 'recognized' by the state.

 

[siderman 1,138]

22 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

For what it's worth (not much legally speaking) the new Winchester offering would not be permissible under NJ's ban on hollowpoints.

The definition does not specifically say a single cavity, and it looks like the Winchester round has 6 cavities. Also, the plug does not reach all the way to the nose of the bullet, so I think it fails there too.

I would agree with this. Don't count on NJ giving any benefit  of doubt.

[KurtC 42]

During a recent qualification, I had the opportunity to fire a .45 EFMJ into ballistic gelatin.

 

 

[brucin 923]

I would love to try these out and if they cycled well carry them in both of my court approved firearms. But NJ knows better.

https://detroitammoco.com/product/90gr-9mm-interceptor/

Check out Taufledermaus youtube channel. They did some extensive testing. The problem is they are legal for me to carry in PA and NY but NJ says no. So I would have to stop at the border and change mags and probably unload the interceptors to be legal. I just carry Critical Defense To make my life easier.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

Wow! $2 per round.

[Grima Squeakersen 482]

NM

[xXxplosive 824]

anyone carrying any of the non-hollow cavity / Solid copper monolythic rounds like Underwood or Ft. Scott........checking my options.

[Tunaman 549]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:41 PM, KurtC said:

During a recent qualification, I had the opportunity to fire a .45 EFMJ into ballistic gelatin.

 

 

I just picked up 2000 105 Grain Federal Guard Dog Projectiles.  Loaded with 5.5 Grains Winchester Autocomp they rock.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

3 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

I just picked up 2000 105 Grain Federal Guard Dog Projectiles.  Loaded with 5.5 Grains Winchester Autocomp they rock.

Nice find!  They stopped making these a while back I think!  I got lucky and bought a crap ton of those bullets in .45 cal.

I would love to get some in 9mm. Anymore in stock where you got them? I may never use the .45 heads I have since I carry only 9mm these days!

[Tunaman 549]

18 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

Nice find!  They stopped making these a while back I think!  I got lucky and bought a crap ton of those bullets in .45 cal.

I would love to get some in 9mm. Anymore in stock where you got them? I may never use the .45 heads I have since I carry only 9mm these days!

He told me today he does have more.  Send me a PM.  I even bought some once fired Federal Nickel brass to duplicate the factory load as close as I can get.  I am pretty close.  I wouldnt want to get hit with these thats for sure.

[silverado427 10,730]

 

[JohnnyB 4,325]

14 minutes ago, silverado427 said:

 

Perhaps upping the powder charge to get better penetration!  He did say it was a lite shooting load so perhaps 6 grains of Autocomp would do the trick or is 5.5 the max recommended powder?  Your thoughts?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I have the old (pre guard dog) 124gr EFMJ's - holding on to those for a while!  

[Tunaman 549]

9 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

Perhaps upping the powder charge to get better penetration!  He did say it was a lite shooting load so perhaps 6 grains of Autocomp would do the trick or is 5.5 the max recommended powder?  Your thoughts?

I tested 5.2,  5.5, and 5.7grains.  All three loads cycled fine in all of my 9mm's.  The 5.7 is pretty snappy but showed no sign of overpressure.  I am sure they can go hotter.  i will load up a few more.  This was my original testing so I am not done.  Besides the fact that I dont know too many humans with vitals deeper than 10 inches into their chest.  I believe they will "do the job" just fine.

[Vdep217 63]

8 hours ago, Tunaman said:

I tested 5.2,  5.5, and 5.7grains.  All three loads cycled fine in all of my 9mm's.  The 5.7 is pretty snappy but showed no sign of overpressure.  I am sure they can go hotter.  i will load up a few more.  This was my original testing so I am not done.  Besides the fact that I dont know too many humans with vitals deeper than 10 inches into their chest.  I believe they will "do the job" just fine.

Was told when I started carrying only carry factory loads.  While not illegal to carry hand loads it opens up alot more questions that you will need to defend in court God forbid you need to use your firearm in defence.

[JohnnyB 4,325]

      I actually trust my reloads more than I do factory ammo!  I visually check the presence and amount of powder in each casing before I insert the bullet.  I have an auto powder drop stage on my press but I don't use it and never will!  Sure, it adds more time to the reload process but I will never have a squib round in my reloads whereas with any factory ammo, you just can't know!  Is it rare, yes.  In a defensive situation,  a squib stuck in your barrel is the end for you!

     As to factory ammo, I just now ordered 5 boxes of Hornady Critical Duty at $25 per box of 50 rounds.  Cheapest I have seen in eons!

[Vdep217 63]

14 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

      I actually trust my reloads more than I do factory ammo!  I visually check the presence and amount of powder in each casing before I insert the bullet.  I have an auto powder drop stage on my press but I don't use it and never will!  Sure, it adds more time to the reload process but I will never have a squib round in my reloads whereas with any factory ammo, you just can't know!  Is it rare, yes.  In a defensive situation,  a squib stuck in your barrel is the end for you!

     As to factory ammo, I just now ordered 5 boxes of Hornady Critical Duty at $25 per box of 50 rounds.  Cheapest I have seen in eons!

I agree I reload as well. In fact the only factory ammo my guns have seen are critical defense.  With reloads there would be to many what is and scrutiny.  Replication etc.  They will paint u to be a horrible person he made thise bullets specifically to kill better etc.  Also I know I do it but I will work up my own loads that aren't published.  So replication would be an issue etc

[Tunaman 549]

4 hours ago, Vdep217 said:

Was told when I started carrying only carry factory loads.  While not illegal to carry hand loads it opens up alot more questions that you will need to defend in court God forbid you need to use your firearm in defence.

I have a few boxes of the factory ammo.  That is what I am carrying.  I bought these to duplicate the factory load so I can use them for practice.  Practice with what you carry right?  This way is WAY cheaper than a dollar a shot or so.  Instead of shooting FMJ I can shoot these for the same price or less.

[Tunaman 549]

2 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

      I actually trust my reloads more than I do factory ammo!  I visually check the presence and amount of powder in each casing before I insert the bullet.  I have an auto powder drop stage on my press but I don't use it and never will!  Sure, it adds more time to the reload process but I will never have a squib round in my reloads whereas with any factory ammo, you just can't know!  Is it rare, yes.  In a defensive situation,  a squib stuck in your barrel is the end for you!

     As to factory ammo, I just now ordered 5 boxes of Hornady Critical Duty at $25 per box of 50 rounds.  Cheapest I have seen in eons!

There cannot be,  nor will there ever be a squib from one of my loads.  My camera shows me the powder in the case of every round.  There are no mistakes.  I even weigh every loaded round for consistency.  The squib will never get by my scrutiny...

[Mr.Stu 1,922]

1 hour ago, Tunaman said:

There cannot be,  nor will there ever be a squib from one of my loads.  My camera shows me the powder in the case of every round.  There are no mistakes.  I even weigh every loaded round for consistency.  The squib will never get by my scrutiny...

Do you test every primer before seating it too? 

[JohnnyB 4,325]

27 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Do you test every primer before seating it too? 

The primer is the one variable we have no control over.  I use only CCI primers and I am a maniac about where and how they are stored! That's the best anyone can do since factory ammo primers are also not tested either before seating every bullet!

[Tunaman 549]

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

Do you test every primer before seating it too? 

Been reloading since 1974.  Never had a primer not go off.  No need to test them...even if there was a test.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

5 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

     As to factory ammo, I just now ordered 5 boxes of Hornady Critical Duty at $25 per box of 50 rounds.  Cheapest I have seen in eons!

From where?!