Called state police about hollow points

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Hmm when I asked I was told hollowpoints were ok and hydroshocks were illegal

[BRN169 6]

Hmm when I asked I was told hollowpoints were ok and hydroshocks were illegal

 

Need I say more...

[joecs1 11]

Ok, heres a question. I know in self defense at my home I can use hollow points. But what about at my place of business. I know im allowed to keep/carry firearms while at my business. And im pretty sure, but not positive I can use hollow point ammo at my store in a defensive situation. But is any one positive?

[Malsua 1,422]

Ok, heres a question. I know in self defense at my home I can use hollow points. But what about at my place of business. I know im allowed to keep/carry firearms while at my business. And im pretty sure, but not positive I can use hollow point ammo at my store in a defensive situation. But is any one positive?

 

An exempted place is an exempted place. Hollow Point use would be treated no differently. Illegal to use illegally. A tack-on charge.

 

If you are concerned then get EFMJ or one of the others.

[tbtrout 141]

I think that the law is pretty clear about this.. I actually heard the law MISQUOTED at the last NJ2A meeting.. I am not sure of the speaker because I was in the middle of of filing the FLCCW permit paperwork.. but I do remember saying to Anthony from GFH and he was like no they are legal I am not sure what he means.. the NJ2A meeting was great.. but if we hope to educate the public and make grounds for greater freedom.. we should probably be %100 of the law before we make random statements regarding the legality of any particular item.... I wish I noticed who was talking at the time but I was just doing to many other things at the moment..

yeah, we took care of that.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Agreed. And in this case he also managed to educate the officer about the law, as well as getting his question answered.

 

There is really no minus to the situation.

 

The minus to this situation is that WE have to educate the cops..... god forbid they bother to do it themselves.

 

Let me put it into perspective for you, this is like a kid walking into a class room and asking his teacher, whats 2+2, teacher answers 5, kid says isnt it 4, checks calculator...oh yeah its 4...... Would you want this person teaching your kid?

 

FYI- They don't send rookies into state divisions, you have to wait like 2 years. That's 2 years this guy could have been brushing up on his firearms knowledge.

[Bob2222 317]

The following conversation is paraphrased to the best of my memory, but the key points are there.

 

me:Hi, I have a question regarding firearm laws?

police: Yes sir how can I help ya?

me: It has to do with hollow points. Are they...

police: They are illegal

 

me: But it says they are perfectly legal on YOUR website!

 

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

 

police: Then why are you calling me?

[Joeybones 1]

Oddly enough I ran into a NJ superior court Judge I know in a restaurant yesterday. He was having lunch with another friend of mine and we got into a discussion which touched on firearms. He believes it is illegal to possess any hollow point or DumDum bullets in NJ and that all firearms must be registered now. Based on the latest information he received as a judge.

No I didn't ask where the info came from. Just reporting what he said.

[BRN169 6]

Oddly enough I ran into a NJ superior court Judge I know in a restaurant yesterday. He was having lunch with another friend of mine and we got into a discussion which touched on firearms. He believes it is illegal to possess any hollow point or DumDum bullets in NJ and that all firearms must be registered now. Based on the latest information he received as a judge.

No I didn't ask where the info came from. Just reporting what he said.

 

That seems to be the standard level of knowledge for those in the ruling and elite classes... I can't wait until these laws start getting shot down. It is going to be one hell of an eye opener for these guys...

[PK90 3,573]

You should have told your Judge friend that he was wrong and didn't know the law.

[Sigman 41]

You should have told your Judge friend that he was wrong and didn't know the law.

 

+1 - pretty incredible

[Joeybones 1]

I did mention I thought he was incorrect on both issues. Have you ever tried to convince a judge he is wrong about the law ? It ain't easy and I have been friends with this guy since grammer school.

[tommy3rd 132]

I did mention I thought he was incorrect on both issues. Have you ever tried to convince a judge he is wrong about the law ? It ain't easy and I have been friends with this guy since grammer school.

So you actually have connections to get your own CCW approved!

[JimmyAGR 54]

I did mention I thought he was incorrect on both issues. Have you ever tried to convince a judge he is wrong about the law ? It ain't easy and I have been friends with this guy since grammer school.

 

Sounds like you have a perfect opportunity to open his eyes. You can even point him to the correct statutes. Maybe he can then pass on the info to his other judge friends. Who knows maybe we can get them to read and understand them.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

its a shame the state also delcared .303 rounds at the dum-dum arsenal in india illegal. shame.... :facepalm"

[RecessedFilter 222]

You don't even need to call the SP for something like this. That's just going to get the firearms unit saying, "damnit, not this kid again".

 

Click this link if you want to read up on laws about HP's:

 

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.html

 

Most questions can be answered via the SP website or on this forum.

[BRaptor 68]

There seems to be some confusion about appropriate sources for interpretation of the law.

 

From my understanding, the following are NOT sources of the law that you can rely on to keep from getting convicted, even if that person tells you straight to your face:

 

1) Any gun forum

2) The officer on the phone at the NJSP (even the Firearms Unit). Just ask Brian Aitken.

3) The officer/detective/clerk at your local PD

4) Your lawyer

5) A judge (see exception below)

6) The result of a Google® search

7) ANYONE NOT LISTED BELOW!

 

The following are sources whose opinions you can rely upon to keep from getting convicted:

 

1) A WRITTEN opinion from an individual whose job it is to interpret the laws for the state, so long as their written opinion is on state letterhead. (E.g. attorney general or one of her minions)

2) A lower Court Order specifically naming you as a party in the legal action (most likely has to be a legal action filed against the state). (note, this does not mean just precedent from a county judge, although this can be convincing.)

3) Maybe, just maybe, the NJSP website. But, even that is cutting it close.

 

 

Bottom line, if you want to know whether something is legal or illegal, you must either get a court order or have the AG issue a formal opinion, in writing, on AG letterhead. So, encouraging others to only come here for answers is at least border-line practicing law without a license and more than likely going to set someone up for a nasty surprise, conviction and loss of his 2A rights.

 

That being said, telling someone what the law is (such as quoting the statute) is not practicing law without a license.

[vladtepes 1,060]

There seems to be some confusion about appropriate sources for interpretation of the law.

 

From my understanding, the following are NOT sources of the law that you can rely on to keep from getting convicted, even if that person tells you straight to your face:

 

1) Any gun forum

2) The officer on the phone at the NJSP (even the Firearms Unit). Just ask Brian Aitken.

3) The officer/detective/clerk at your local PD

4) Your lawyer

5) A judge (see exception below)

6) The result of a Google® search

7) ANYONE NOT LISTED BELOW!

 

The following are sources whose opinions you can rely upon to keep from getting convicted:

 

1) A WRITTEN opinion from an individual whose job it is to interpret the laws for the state, so long as their written opinion is on state letterhead. (E.g. attorney general or one of her minions)

2) A lower Court Order specifically naming you as a party in the legal action (most likely has to be a legal action filed against the state). (note, this does not mean just precedent from a county judge, although this can be convincing.)

3) Maybe, just maybe, the NJSP website. But, even that is cutting it close.

 

 

Bottom line, if you want to know whether something is legal or illegal, you must either get a court order or have the AG issue a formal opinion, in writing, on AG letterhead. So, encouraging others to only come here for answers is at least border-line practicing law without a license and more than likely going to set someone up for a nasty surprise, conviction and loss of his 2A rights.

 

That being said, telling someone what the law is (such as quoting the statute) is not practicing law without a license.

 

 

some of what you say is totally off base imo...

 

more often than not when someone answers something regarding the law here... not only do they answer it.. but the site the law in question... the reality is the people who you would rely on for giving you good info are the ones that are in most cases looking to remove your rights (AG for example) and suggesting that you contact them any time something is questionable in your mind is probably a bad idea...

 

and this is why.. take that IO NJ legal AK variant.. (well it WAS NJ legal..)

 

"hey AG are these "IO rifles" legal.. I am asking because they look like AK47s.."

"OMG they do look like evil baby killing jihadist ak47 machine guns!!!!!!!!!!!! they MUST be banned"

add one more gun to the list that you CAN'T own...

 

the more realistic option... hmm is this gun legal..

* I can buy it over the counter at a legitimate gun store in NJ...

* It is not specifically named as a banned assault weapon..

* It is not substantially identical as defined by NJ law...

then it is legal! that is of course until 8 million "do-gooders" ring the phones off the hook at NJSP firearms division.. like seriously.. without judging a book by its cover.. take a look at Paula Dow.. WTF do you think she knows about firearms.. here.. let me sum up what she knows.. "guns kill people..." that is the extent of her firearms knowledge IMO.. asking this person to clarify laws she obviously does not even grasp is an exercise in screwing yourself.. she is ALWAYS going to error on the side against you.. she is ALWAYS going to error on the side of limiting your rights....

 

yeah contact the state police if you have a legitimate question that you think that they can help with.. I went shooting on private property in an area that they patrol.. I was pretty sure there was no laws regarding this.. I called them and asked if it was ok.. they told me it was not a problem... I called them and asked them the minimum length for a rifle.. ask them things that are black and white.. but really don't ask them their opinion unless there are no other options.. people here don't know everything.. but they will help you if they can.. especially helpful are the few instructors, and LEOs we have on the board.. some of them really know WTF they are talking about..

[BigHayden 77]

the reality is the people who you would rely on for giving you good info are the ones that are in most cases looking to remove your rights (AG for example) and suggesting that you contact them any time something is questionable in your mind is probably a bad idea...

 

This is one of those "Yeah, but..." situations. Yeah, you're right, the AG is more than likely going to answer an "is it legal" question with an emphatic NO, but, the AG is also the one who tells prosecutors how to do their jobs.

 

It's legal to possess a handgun in your home or while moving, but tell that to Brian Aitken. Asking the people who are most likely to take away 7 years of your life is a good way to not step into the bear trap of NJ law.

 

We should be working to change the laws in NJ, not hiding our faces behind our hand and hope the AG or the NJSP doesn't hear about the new AK variant (or whatever else comes along).

[vladtepes 1,060]

This is one of those "Yeah, but..." situations. Yeah, you're right, the AG is more than likely going to answer an "is it legal" question with an emphatic NO, but, the AG is also the one who tells prosecutors how to do their jobs.

 

It's legal to possess a handgun in your home or while moving, but tell that to Brian Aitken. Asking the people who are most likely to take away 7 years of your life is a good way to not step into the bear trap of NJ law.

 

We should be working to change the laws in NJ, not hiding our faces behind our hand and hope the AG or the NJSP doesn't hear about the new AK variant (or whatever else comes along).

 

 

with all due respect.. his case is a bad example since he was actually breaking the law.. and even with that said that decision will likely be overturned as we are seeing now.. I do not do things that are of gray area... I do not own magazines that can hold 15 and a half rounds.. I do not own any muzzle devices that might be flash hiders... the law.. for the most part is very clear.. and time and time again people ask questions on this board and get good answers... in fact.. to play devils advocate.. lets take brian for example..

 

lets just say he did call the NJSP and ask this that and the other.. and lets argue that he did in fact act on the advice they gave him.. which may or may not have even happened.. but lets just say it did..

 

the advice they gave him.. got him put in jail...

 

lets just say he came on this board.. and said I am moving here and there.. and I have hollow points.. and I have 16 round magazines.. I am %100 sure that the advice given here would NOT have been yeah you are fine go for it.. there would have been a page and a half telling him NOT to do that..

 

the advice we would have given.. would have had him home with his family eating turkey this past November...

 

so yeah I stand behind what I stated.. this forum.. in particular is a pretty good bed of information.. is it the end all legal resource for NJ gun law.. NO of course not.. but basic normal questions like "can I bring 16 round magazines into NJ" can be answered time and time again.. with our eyes closed.. likely in several different languages..

 

just saying..

[BigHayden 77]

with all due respect.. his case is a bad example since he was actually breaking the law.. and even with that said that decision will likely be overturned as we are seeing now.. I do not do things that are of gray area... I do not own magazines that can hold 15 and a half rounds.. I do not own any muzzle devices that might be flash hiders... the law.. for the most part is very clear.. and time and time again people ask questions on this board and get good answers... in fact.. to play devils advocate.. lets take brian for example..

 

lets just say he did call the NJSP and ask this that and the other.. and lets argue that he did in fact act on the advice they gave him.. which may or may not have even happened.. but lets just say it did..

 

the advice they gave him.. got him put in jail...

 

lets just say he came on this board.. and said I am moving here and there.. and I have hollow points.. and I have 16 round magazines.. I am %100 sure that the advice given here would NOT have been yeah you are fine go for it.. there would have been a page and a half telling him NOT to do that..

 

the advice we would have given.. would have had him home with his family eating turkey this past November...

 

so yeah I stand behind what I stated.. this forum.. in particular is a pretty good bed of information.. is it the end all legal resource for NJ gun law.. NO of course not.. but basic normal questions like "can I bring 16 round magazines into NJ" can be answered time and time again.. with our eyes closed.. likely in several different languages..

 

just saying..

 

Not to go off on a tangent, but I keep hearing that he had >15 round magazines. OK, trust but verify. Nobody has been able to say for sure that he did and what gun they were for. Yes, possession of high capacity magazines is one of the charges on the arrest report, but I don't know that he was tried for that offense, since the 7 year prison term is for illegal possession of a handgun without a permit to carry.

 

Somebody posted the arrest report on here. Does anybody have a copy of the court records which show which offenses he was convicted on? Frank? You were working with Brian and Evan pretty closely to organize the rally, do you have more info on the magazine charge?

 

OK, back to your post. On this board he would have also been told that hollow points are legal, and yet Brian was still arrested for possession of hollow points. We also would have told him to transport his guns in exactly the manner he did, and none of it would have amounted to a hill of beans because the judge ignored the exemption that allowed him to have the guns in his car. So even if this board is the ultimate resource for NJ firearms laws, it does nobody any good if the government ignores the law to advance their own idealogy.

[vladtepes 1,060]

So even if this board is the ultimate resource for NJ firearms laws, it does nobody any good if the government ignores the law to advance their own idealogy.

 

but it still does not change the fact that the information we would have provided would have been leaps and bounds better than the completely wrong info he received from NJSP... agreed it may be splitting hairs.. and we are now talking about a bigger problem (that being the ridiculous sentence he ended up with)... but at the end of the day.. it is stated that NJSP said he was breaking no law.. WE would have stated that the magazines were not legal.. and to use caution with the HP ammo..

 

so again.. this forum.. is NOT the end all of legal info.. but the info is pretty good.. if he did not have HP ammo.. if he did not have high capacity mags.. would he have even met the same fate?

[bulpup 98]

The minus to this situation is that WE have to educate the cops..... god forbid they bother to do it themselves.

 

Let me put it into perspective for you, this is like a kid walking into a class room and asking his teacher, whats 2+2, teacher answers 5, kid says isnt it 4, checks calculator...oh yeah its 4...... Would you want this person teaching your kid?

 

 

 

Then there is the perspective that the fact that they don't know is a given. The plus is that there is one lesss that does not.

[SafetyHit 1]

Um no... Not sure where you picked up that pile of horse crap. They are under no obligation to interpret the law for you it is up to you to go to an attorney if you can't figure it out.

 

 

They may not be under any obligation to interpret the law, but they sure are obligated to know it. Especially in the firearm division where they answer calls from the public about firearms and related topics. And they are indeed also obligated to answer questions, this with factual answers.

 

If they don't know the answer then they are obligated to say they don't know and advise you of that fact, not dispense an incorrect answer. It is their lack of knowledge of the laws they are paid and trusted to enforce that is absolutely unacceptable, not this man calling them in order to avoid breaking the law. Period.

[vladtepes 1,060]

They may not be under any obligation to interpret the law, but they sure are obligated to know it. Especially in the firearm division where they answer calls from the public about firearms and relat

 

I think that when it comes to NJSP that is the key..

 

they will.. without question answer a clear black and white question..

 

in NJ.. what is the legal mag capacity.. what is the min barrel length.. etc..

 

and as you stated.. they will NOT tell you what they think in reference to the law or make an assumption of how it pertains to you.. they will not tell you if they think XYZ muzzle brake qualifies as a hider..

[hopper 36]

In Brians case who else should he have called being a out of stater ?? He called the NJSP and "Supposedly" went on what they said , i mean you would think being a out of stater you could call the states official PD and get a straight and legally correct answer but obviously from posts on here WE know that not to be the case , in his case he prob thought he was doing the right thing , SO FOR ALL OF US ITS BEST TO ASK HERE FIRST AND DO A LITTLE RESEARCH BEFORE CALLING ANYONE WHO COULD POSSIBLY CHANGE THE RULES !!!!

[vjf915 456]

I think many of you are missing a simple point.....how does everyone know what Brian Aitken asked? If he asked them if 16 round magazines are legal, I am sure they would say NO it they are not legal. If he asked if hollow points were legal while he was committing another crime, chances are they would say no. He likely called up and asked if CERTAIN WEAPONS were legal, and how he could legally transport the weapons. There is absolutely NOTHING that points towards NJSP giving him false advice, and the overwhelming odds are that he just asked about the weapons and transportation of. Let's stop bashing NJSP when there is no reason to and nothing pointing towards them being at fault for false advice in the case of Brian Aitken.

[maideneddie 35]

I think many of you are missing a simple point.....how does everyone know what Brian Aitken asked? If he asked them if 16 round magazines are legal, I am sure they would say NO it they are not legal. If he asked if hollow points were legal while he was committing another crime, chances are they would say no. He likely called up and asked if CERTAIN WEAPONS were legal, and how he could legally transport the weapons. There is absolutely NOTHING that points towards NJSP giving him false advice, and the overwhelming odds are that he just asked about the weapons and transportation of. Let's stop bashing NJSP when there is no reason to and nothing pointing towards them being at fault for false advice in the case of Brian Aitken.

You took the thought right out of my head. How can anyone speculate on what Brian did or did not do unless you are him? To say that he should have looked at our forum before coming to NJ instead of calling the NJSP is absurd. Why would anyone in their right mind who has questions regarding gun laws base his actions on what he has read on the internet. Yes we do have a lot to offer with the vast amount of knowledge from all the members here, but seriously don't call the authorities?

 

The point has been more than overly emphasized that some of you think the NJSP don't know anything more than black and white answers to very specific questions, so it is really not necessary to continue to beat your opinion into the ground. We heard you the first 10 times.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I think many of you are missing a simple point.....how does everyone know what Brian Aitken asked? If he asked them if 16 round magazines are legal, I am sure they would say NO it they are not legal. If he asked if hollow points were legal while he was committing another crime, chances are they would say no. He likely called up and asked if CERTAIN WEAPONS were legal, and how he could legally transport the weapons. There is absolutely NOTHING that points towards NJSP giving him false advice, and the overwhelming odds are that he just asked about the weapons and transportation of. Let's stop bashing NJSP when there is no reason to and nothing pointing towards them being at fault for false advice in the case of Brian Aitken.

 

 

I have implied the same thing a few times..

[GRIZ 3,369]

The trooper said:

 

Normally my encounter with hollow points is related to traffic stops that result in a weapon present

 

That the Trooper (even assigned to the Firearms Div) was not 100% up on the law concerning hollowpoints doesn't make him an idiot, ignorant of the law, or anything else other than a trooper that wasn't 100% up on the law on hollowpoints.

 

We all know the hollowpoint law (regardless of what it says) is used as an add on charge when there is a firearms offense. I am still waiting for someone to provide details of that mythical person who was arrested for one hollowpoint in his car and got 5 years in prison.

 

NJSP has jurisdiction in criminal, motor vehicle (commercial and non-commercial), fish and game, legalized games of chance, alcoholic beverage control, boating, aviation, DEP, and a plethora of other state laws. This isn't counting municipal ordinances and federal law that gives them jurisdiction to do certain things.

 

I spent over 30 years as a LEO, most of it with a federal agency. My position description gave me authority to enforce laws of about 30 different federal agencies and I can guarantee you I wasn't familiar at all with most of them. Many states gave me "peace officer" status giving me jurisdiction in state laws.

 

Most of the stuff on the NJSP website concerning firearms is written on about an 8th grade level so its pretty easy to understand. I know it doesn't answer all the questions. If I had a question on NJ firearms law I'd sure as heck put my money on a Trooper having or able to get the answer for me vs any firearms forum.

 

How can anyone speculate on what Brian did or did not do unless you are him?

 

So many people here are critical of NJSP but these same people who are willing to throw all their effort into supporting Aitken. This makes no sense to me as no where have I seen, as Paul Harvey would say, the rest of the story. That includes all the links that have been posted on this or any other forum. Yes, NJ gun laws are horrible and I do think 7 years is excessive for what he did but to me there are too many unanswered questions in this case.

 

People on gun forums are too quick to criticize LEOS and defend anyone who has been arrested for any firearms offense without knowing the whole story (or even ignoring it). This is no way to get fencesitters on the side of those defending not only the 2nd Amendment but the rest of them as well.