Time to stop with the "God Given Right"

[Njgunowner 2]

Actually pulling prayer out of school had nothing to do with ANYTHING you mentioned.

 

Divorce rates started climbing when more and more women started working full time, which happened to happen in the 60's with the equal rights movement. The other crap started climbing after the industrial revolution. More and more people left the small towns and farms, cramming into tighter spaces fighting for the same jobs. It's basically the same thing that happens when you stick 10 cats in a sack and give it a shake. Most people couldn't tell you who their neighbors are anymore, nor do they care.

 

If you want to win, you need to put your arguments in words your audience understands. You don't start babbling Spanish when your trying to teach French, and you don't start a baseball discussion with a Mets fan... Ok I don't have a good one for the Mets, they're just terrible.

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

God given rights "can't" be taken away, man made rights can....what's so hard and offensive about that? Really? You that wimpified?

 

First off, this BS PC pandering is what got us into this predicament. What's next? Don't call it a gun, it really offends them? My goodness, to post stuff like this is total BS and shows how weak minded you really are.

 

I'm a Christian and an American and it offends me that you post crap like this. Look at the polls, 86% of Americans believe in God and about 60% are practicing Christians. Right off the bat you're pandering to 14% of the public that will never change their minds. Kind of like when Walmart was calling "Christmas" shopping, Holiday shopping...duh! Just who do you think shops at Christmas? They paid (literally) for this foul up. The founders believed that Rights come from "Almighty God" and not government....because Rights from Government can be taken away. I'm sure you're familiar enough with History to know that.

 

BTW, FWIW, I NEVER mention the 2A or any of the Bill of Rights as "Rights from God" until I get into the history and reasoning during a debate. See, the point of coming on here and making statements like this really tick me off because there is no reason as to why you're making such a blanket statement. If your debates evolve that quickly then you're debating incorrectly. It depends on the venue, who's around, who you're talking to, how much time you have, etc, etc, etc. But to simply write a one paragraph post stating "take God out of gun discussions" is...well, ummm....I'll refrain.

 

Go ahead, keep marginalizing God, the Founders, Morals, values and you'll soon see where we really end up....with nothing. It's compromising like you suggest and pandering to a group that wants to destroy us that's got us in this mess and worse, we lose everything!

 

Very well said. Its sickening to see God taken out of everything! Is it a coincidence that our beloved country has been morally decaying the last say 20 years?

[Wavecaster 22]

It is a whole different debate. I may be as passionate about the religion debate as I am about talking firearms, but they are DIFFERENT. Every single post in this thread proves that the topic starter speaks sense. Sparking the religion debate takes the spotlight off of what we are fighting so desperately to get the spotlight on. You try to explain gun rights, try to explain that a rifle being black doesn't make its wielder instantly gain an urge to slaughter children, or that 5, 10, 15, 30 or even 100 round magazines do not cause violence. Then the very second you mention religion it blows up in your face and these 3 pages of whining about something that is not our goal is the results. I would love to debate religion on another day. in another place. but smack in the middle of a different battle is NOT the time or place.

[222 3]

 

The battle here is NOT for the extreme left, or the corrective measures that need to be shown by the far right. It is a battle for the centrist 'fence sitter', a battle to win their hearts and minds. It is a battle for the me me me generation type, it is a battle for the government dependent type, it is a battle for those that most likely do not have any faith.

 

The quickest way to alienate them and turn them off to you, is to stomp around shouting the aforementioned statements...period.

 

Like it or not PERCEPTION is reality and if you are PERCEIVED as being a bit batty in the noggin, spouting about God and Such and the old constitution etc...you have lost the PR war.

 

This is not so much a 'war' about FACTS, it is a PR campaign being waged and those with the best PR campaign is going to win. No matter if you, or I know we are right.....

 

I would have a tough time phrasing it better.

 

 

The battle is not with 5% extremist left that will never be convinced.

The battle is not with the 12% gun owners of NJ. We'll vote 2A as a highly salient issue, sometimes over taxes and jobs.

The battle is over the middle 80%, whose top salient issues are jobs, economy and taxes, and 2A has little lasting salience.

 

For example: One recent Huffington Post article discusses Universal Background Check bill being held up by Schumer's insistence on creating National Firearms Registry. Comment I posted was:

 

"

 

I was looking at FY budgets for various federal programs from 2008-2013 projected: FBI, DHS, food stamps, HUD... Every program cost billions of dollars, has seen growth every year, often double-digit percentage growth. At same time, nearly every private sector has had budget cutbacks and reductions-in-force nearly every year.

 

Now another proposal that'll probably cost $10-$20 billion to implement and cost $2-3 billion per year to run.

 

It just amazes me how consistently Democrats spend & grow government economy

While tax & kill private sector job growth.

And they probably don't even know it.

"

[slapmypc 0]

Northeastern populations are becoming more secular, less religious. By using "natural rights" instead of "granted by god" we separate two important but separate discussions. Focus on freedom, self-protection, and the piss-poor job our gov't did with Sandy as arguments for being self reliant and personally responsible.

[Vlad G 345]

Amazing and your argument is winning how? So let me get this straight...

 

Like it has been winning the argument for the last two decades, as gun rights have been improving. How well is your working exactly? You like giving the president ammo to talk about bitter clingers?

 

 

Pull prayer out of school in 1963. Divorce rates jump exponentially year after year along with murder, theft, rapes, unwed mothers, suicides, mass killings, massacres. Then all morals and values fly out the window along with ethics and many many other problems. Inflation, welfare, blaming others and no more admittance of wrong doing or guilt. I could go on and on but a quick research of history reveals how society has broken down immensely from this point in.

 

Oh really? what research?

 

Like this?

 

 

Or this the fact that murder rate is a 50 year low? Or the fact that generarly speaking crime levels are less then 20% if what they were in the 1800s? Which were an improvement over the 1700's?

 

Please, if you are going to make arguments, provide some actual proof for made up data.

 

Would you have been happy if they replaced christian prayer in schools with muslim or hindu? Would that work for you? After all we have freedom religion.

 

The more I think about it if the people in those days would have stuck with their belief in God, the founding fathers and all that 'offensive' crazy talk we would not be in this predicament that we are today .

 

Oh sure, because the god fearing country of the 50's was 60% for banning handguns instead of 70% against today.

 

If you think God gave you rights that's fine, I don't have a problem with it because I agree with the conclusion if I don't agree with the logic. But if you insist on bringing god into the gun rights argument at least don't say things I can disprove with 30 seconds and a internet search engine.

[mikelets456 78]

Nice. Care to post where you got that? Also, did you hear of a thing called over crowded prisons? Gee, how many thugs are on the streets because of our corrupt legal system. Btw, are you saying we're much better off as a society now?

 

http://t.answers.com/answers/#!/entry/what-are-the-statistics-of-violence-before-and-after-prayer,4fe69e914b672622b852f9a6/5

 

Btw, your ammo for the democrats and the president in " bitter bible clingers" should be the first clue we're getting to them. Gee, since you're a history buff what's the first thing all Marxists, nazis and takeovers get rid of? Come on, I know you can figure it out. Yes, very good....God, Bibles and Christianity. How do you get rid of that? By lying and slandering. My goodness, this is statist takeover 101.

 

But go ahead and keep buying into Chris Matthews and al sharpton that God is the cause of all problems and government is the answer. You're okay with the 50,000 or more man made laws but offended by the 2 from God. Go ahead and keep blaming God and Christians for all the worlds problems. As God is removed farther and farther from our core it's pretty obvious how society has degraded rapidly and to deny it is ignorant.

 

Good luck as I'm out on this subject. It amazes me that you think society is much better off now as we move away from God. Keep blaming Christians as you're completely taken over.

 

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Betcha the Anti 2A's are just loving this fighting going-on between fellow PRO 2A's in here, good work.

[Soju 153]

Nice. Care to post where you got that? Also, did you hear of a thing called over crowded prisons? Gee, how many thugs are on the streets because of our corrupt legal system. Btw, are you saying we're much better off as a society now?

 

http://t.answers.com...72622b852f9a6/5

 

Btw, your ammo for the democrats and the president in " bitter bible clingers" should be the first clue we're getting to them. Gee, since you're a history buff what's the first thing all Marxists, nazis and takeovers get rid of? Come on, I know you can figure it out. Yes, very good....God, Bibles and Christianity. How do you get rid of that? By lying and slandering. My goodness, this is statist takeover 101.

 

But go ahead and keep buying into Chris Matthews and al sharpton that God is the cause of all problems and government is the answer. You're okay with the 50,000 or more man made laws but offended by the 2 from God. Go ahead and keep blaming God and Christians for all the worlds problems. As God is removed farther and farther from our core it's pretty obvious how society has degraded rapidly and to deny it is ignorant.

 

Good luck as I'm out on this subject. It amazes me that you think society is much better off now as we move away from God. Keep blaming Christians as you're completely taken over.

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't think he was blaming anything, just saying that you blaming people not being religious for being the problem, isn't the problem...

[Vlad G 345]

I'm tempted to give up and call this a lost cause, but I can't because as long as you go down this path you end up hurting me.

 

The reason the bitter clingers things was said was because it worked. It may have annoyed me and you but it worked, because look who is sitting in the White House. Do not make the mistake of thinking they people managing elections campaigns do not know what they are doing, everything its calculated. They went down that path because they knew it would work.

 

You are not getting to them, they are playing you like a fiddle.

 

I don't care if laws offend god, the man never spoke to me. I care if they offend me and I see plenty of "god fearing people" making laws that suck too. How did the last president work for you? You are happy with the patriot act and all the other crap? Do you think the god fearing man in the white house gave a damn?

 

I don't blame Christians for anything in particular, I blame you for not being able to separate religion from government, as the constitution you say you support dictates.

 

As for where I got that data ... use a google or your favorite search engine. Feel free to search for "US crime rates 20th century" and do your own research.

 

While you at it, get back to explaining to me how the god fearing people in the 50's were so much more opposed to handguns that people are today. How do you reconcile that with your theory that it is lack of god that it is getting us all these new laws?

[gunguy1960 2]

Getting rid of religion is a hallmark of communist countries, and they have low crime rates, if you dont count what the government does. New Jersey is a state with many who admire communist principles, even if they dont know thats what they are "preaching".

[Qel Hoth 33]

Getting rid of religion is a hallmark of communist countries, and they have low crime rates, if you dont count what the government does. New Jersey is a state with many who admire communist principles, even if they dont know thats what they are "preaching".

 

There is a distinct difference between getting rid of religion and removing religion's influence on law.

[sicrado 0]

In my opinion using inalienable rights instead of god given rights is far more effective in general. When you say inalienable rights you immediate invoke the Declaration of Independence and all the rights that are declared as inalienable.

 

As VladG keeps pointing out, and so many of you refuse to see, we're not trying to convince the die hard antis but the people on the fence. These people are a lot more receptive to level headed non hyperbolized rhetoric. And even when you are arguing with an anti who you have no chance of converting there are usually a lot more people in the middle listening. Let the antis come off as rabid, emotional and illogical while you remain level headed and logical and you will win the fence sitters.

 

^^^^^THIS

[NicePants 58]

Just say it whichever way you want. It all means the same damn thing anyway.

[Vlad G 345]

Getting rid of religion is a hallmark of communist countries, and they have low crime rates, if you dont count what the government does. New Jersey is a state with many who admire communist principles, even if they dont know thats what they are "preaching".

 

So are you saying when people like Madison, Jefferson, and Patrick Henry were writing about the wall of separation between church and state, they were just being communists?

 

How exactly do you argue about the the second amendment while at the same time ignoring on of the fundamental tenets of our for of government?

[johnp 45]

Allah given right?

[gunguy1960 2]

And a big welcome to the ACLU members.

[ruger9 0]

Allah given right?

 

If you're a Muslim, sure.

 

Tree given right? If you're a druid, sure.

 

Alien given right? If you're scientologist, sure.

 

Nothingness given right? If you're an atheist, sure.

 

That's the point: freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.

[ruger9 0]

For the record, I'm not "fighting" with anyone- I am using my 1st amendment right of free speech and freedom of religion. I'M not the one doing the complaining. I'm the one saying "do what you will, and let me do as I will".

 

And I state again- I will not change they way I speak (allow my 1st amendment right to be infringed) because someone else doesn't like it. Last time I looked, this was still America... if only barely. And this "great middle" people seem to be referencing, imo, is NOT what we need to ascribe or cow-tow to. But again- that's AMERICA. INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY. You think the founders didn't have "fights" MUCH worse than these while drafting the founding documents? And look what they accomplished. Despite popular belief, it wasn't about all of them agreeing or being on the same page- is was about setting up a form of government where the individual people could be on any page they want. It was to restrict the infringement of individual liberty.

 

IMO, the people saying "stop talking about God" are the same people who thought running McCain because he could "reach across the isle" was a GOOD idea. The right has run two moderate candidates, and lost twice. Perhaps we should actually return to the roots of conservatism, stick to our guns, and run a CONSERVATIVE candidate next time, one that ISN'T afraid to invoke God. Or at the very least freedom OF religion... instead of running away from from it.

 

There is no "absolutism" going on here- I simply am going to say what I want to say. And I encourage others to do the same. Individual liberty. The only "absolutism" I see are from those trying to coerce others to "take God out of it".

 

I will not be coerced to "soften" my position with regards to God and country. And for those of you who think I am "why we will lose the battle", I say- RIGHT BACK AT YOU.

[222 3]

Honestly I am less concerned about the elegance of an argument

Than the strength of the conviction

And the willingness we stand together to protect the civil liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

[ruger9 0]

But don't you see...(Nick) you (and so others) are doing exactly the same thing with your opinion of "YOU should do it MY way, or we are going to lose." You are being absolutist in your strategy.

 

It's similar to the way the GOP has been going center the last 10 years especially- hasn't done them much good, has it? They has spent an awful lot of money and time trying to "win the middle", when all they have done is lose their base and water down their values. What is now considered the "right" isn't- it has moved towards the middle. What is considered the "middle" leans liberal, and liberalism is just socialism in sheep's clothing at this point.

 

I will not be a part of further watering down of conservative beliefs and principles. I am a true conservative, I'm proud of it, and I won't pretend to be a moderate, as I think that has been part of this problem all along.

 

But- all these differing political ideas, and differing opinions on which way we should go- it's the stuff a country was founded on.

 

I consider myself a Jeffersonian Republican- which in very little way resembles the republican party of today.

[ryan_j 0]

Your rights are not inalienable because God gave them to you. They are inalienable because they cannot be taken from you, they cannot be transferred, you cannot give them away, etc. It has nothing to do with where they came from. Atheists have the same inalienable rights yet they believe in no god. That is one helluva a definition of "God" lol.

 

That's exactly what I said.

 

God is a legal concept, not just a supreme being. An "act of God" is something beyond human control.

[ryan_j 0]

HOWEVER, GOD has no weight in this conversation as it pertains to firearms.....and the more you invoke Him into it, the more and more you are going to alienate the middle....

 

Once again I will state it...... The extreme left and the extreme right are dictating the conversation and once again the MIDDLE has NO VOICE.....zero NONE.....

 

Absolutism almost always fails for BOTH sides..... The world is grey fellas/ladies...like it or not....

 

Wage a proper PR war here, or go home like the Republicans did in the last election.....

 

Okay, so if God has no place in the discussion, where does your right to keep and bear arms come from, and what exactly is preventing politicians from legislating it away?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

This discussion is going absolutely nowhere, we're trying to keep religion and politics out of the discussion because anyone can relate to that message. Does it really friggen matter where man has been given a right to life and liberty it's not even important to the point. If your going to spread our message why not do it in a neutral way? We always talk about facts facts facts. Where your rights come from doesn't matter the fact you have these rights and there being taking away from you should be your number one message.

[Njgunowner 2]

Well, you are certainly free to do it your way Ruger9. Personally I'm much more interested in WINNING. If invoking god would help, I'd advocate that too. But in this case the constant chest thumping and god rhetoric is hurting a lot more than helping. I'm sorry you can't see that, the rest of us will try to mitigate the damage as best we can.

[ryan_j 0]

Well if you don't want to acknowledge God anywhere, time to take down the stars and stripes and fly the union jack.

[Njgunowner 2]

Okay, so if God has no place in the discussion, where does your right to keep and bear arms come from, and what exactly is preventing politicians from legislating it away?

 

I comes from ME. I comes from my HUMAN right to self defense. I comes from my HUMAN right to resist an oppressive government. Our rights are WE decide they are, and what we are willing to fight for. There's a reason the founding fathers made sure to put in a separation of church and state. They didn't want religion dictating what rights we have or don't have, or control who is in power. They didn't want the Christians telling the muslims they can't vote, and they didn't want the Muslims telling the Hindu's how to worship. The bible has been revised dozens of times, depending on what the various religions wanted it to say. No thanks.

[ryan_j 0]

I comes from ME. I comes from my HUMAN right to self defense. I comes from my HUMAN right to resist an oppressive government. There's a reason the founding fathers made sure to put in a separation of church and state. They didn't want religion dictating what rights we have or don't have, or control who is in power. The bible has been revised dozens of times, depending on what the various religions wanted it to say.

 

But as I said, God is not necessarily a supreme being. It is a legal concept. An "Act of God" is used all the time in contracts.

[Njgunowner 2]

But as I said, God is not necessarily a supreme being. It is a legal concept. An "Act of God" is used all the time in contracts.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges, the phrases are perceived quite a bit differently. All you have to do is look at the responses on various comments where people used the "god given rights" phrase.

[ryan_j 0]

That's not what I'm talking about. You are talking about the process.

 

I'm talking about the motivation.

 

The declaration talks about inalienable rights granted by our creator.

 

If there is fear of a higher power, there's less justification for doing wrong things. As a child, didn't you fear your mommy and daddy taking off their belt and giving you a good paddling for doing something wrong? That's exactly how the Government should feel about the citizenry, and there should be NO QUESTION about rights because they are not man-made, period. And the simplest way to say "not man-made" where everyone will understand is to say "God-given."