Do you shoot tight groups? You shouldn't !!!

[Howard 538]

I was just watching a training video that explained you don't want to shoot tight groups.  I said to myself what the heck is this guy talking about.  Then I listened some more and thought about it and it actually made sense.  Sure if you are shooting bull's-eyes or other competitions you want to, but for self defense he explained you don't want to.  What you want to do is inflict the maximum damage.  It does you little good to place five shots through the same hole in the bad guy.  You want to spread those five shots out on center mass to inflict the maximum damage on center mass.  Never heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Old School 611]

Shoot small miss small.  There's a difference between agonizing over a defensive shot and shooting center mass accurately.

 

You'll never put all the shots in the save hole anyways.  You just pick your center mass point and go to it until the treat is eliminated.

[FLHX 1]

I was talking to a guy the other day who trains NJSP and he said he trains people to shoot center mass and keep shooting until they fall. He said the same thing just make them bleed out "wound channels is what make people die they just bleed out" as many as possible.

 

Sounds right!! What was scary he had a lot of trouble hitting his pistols targets and came in last place in the match.

[alec.mc 180]

[Vlad G 345]

You don't shoot for groups as a self defense tactic, you should for groups to train consistency and the ability to make ONE accurate placed shot if you need to. It is a way to practice a specific skills set.

 

Sorry, that statement makes no sense to me, it sounds more like it came from someone who doesn't like practicing that skill set and tried to find a reason for it.

[illy 1]

Shoot small miss small.  There's a difference between agonizing over a defensive shot and shooting center mass accurately.

 

You'll never put all the shots in the save hole anyways.  You just pick your center mass point and go to it until the treat is eliminated.

 

 

 

 

You don't shoot for groups as a self defense tactic, you should for groups to train consistency and the ability to make ONE accurate placed shot if you need to. It is a way to practice a specific skills set.

 

Sorry, that statement makes no sense to me, it sounds more like it came from someone who doesn't like practicing that skill set and tried to find a reason for it.

 

All of that^

 

In a real defensive shooting, you're not putting 5 shot in one hole. That's ridiculous.

What you get from practicing tight groups is the ability, under real stress and possible return fire, to keep your shots within that center mass area (hopefully).

[Howard 538]

The guy knew his stuff and was actually teaching how to shoot tight groups, and did it quite well.  I just found his comment interesting that while you want to have that skill, that five shots through the same hole in self-defense situation is sub-optimal.  Take it for what it is worth, but don't shoot the messenger

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I guess the bad guy will jus stand-still and not move so you CAN put all the shots in the same hole.........................

[djg0770 481]

It's unlikely, even if you train to shoot 5 shots into a quarter that in a self defense situation, when your adrenaline and heart rate are way up, that you're going to maintain that consistency.  I understand what's he's attempting to say, but I find it not very applicable.  If my "groups" are as wide as 1 ft at 7 yards, I'm going to have great difficulty hitting the target when I'm hopped up on a adrenaline...

 

I understand he's trying to get you to create more wound channels, I don't believe that his type of thinking is really necessary in a self defense scenario.  I'd much rather worry about hitting the target consistently and shooting to STOP the threat.

[Shane45 807]

You don't shoot for groups as a self defense tactic, you should for groups to train consistency and the ability to make ONE accurate placed shot if you need to. It is a way to practice a specific skills set.

 

Sorry, that statement makes no sense to me, it sounds more like it came from someone who doesn't like practicing that skill set and tried to find a reason for it.

AGREED!

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Nothing to see here people. Move along.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Howard,

 

You're VERY entertaining today.  As expected, the "Troops" are whipped into a frenzy.  I'm not quite sure how to take your "guy" in this training video you mentioned, but most folks reading what you wrote about the trainer would say that they guy is FULL OF CRAP, lol!  It's been said here on this thread already, and by several folks who are better shots than most Cops:  In a real gun fight, just get the center mass hits!  How you do it is up to you, but I would say to train to deliberately avoid hitting the same hole twice is something to be left up to Movie Actors and prop guns, lol!

 

I don't know what types of "Action" practice you undertake or what ranges you go to, or how long you've been attending Action Matches, but I'm going to suggest that you try doing some "Bill Drills".  These are roughly described as engaging 2-3 USPSA targets with 6 rounds each as fast as you can, from say 7 yards away (see the famously-taught 21 foot Rule for defense against edged weapons).  A sorta-decent shooter can watch the wood fly as the "D" hits get made (almost becoming Pray and Spray).  A Wanna-be doesn't know where he/she hits (or how many even hit) until it's all over.  A Good shooter (like myself) gets mostly "A's" along with a "C" or two.  A GREAT shooter gets 'em all in the "A" zone!

 

Yet another great practice is another "Speed Drill" we do at Indoor Action:  Line-up multiple targets 7-10 yards away.  Engage with (2) rounds each freestyle, RELOAD, re-engage the entire array with strong hand ONLY, the RELOAD again, then engage the entire array with weak hand ONLY.  Then you'll have some idea of what it's like to be in a gun fight.  And you probably won't have to worry about too many rounds going through the same hole(s).

 

The above isn't meant to be any sort of put-down, just a reasonable explanation of our combined thinking in response to your original post.

 

Dave

[Howard 538]

I guess I really stepped in it on this one

 

As I said the guy was teaching about getting tight groups and consistent trigger pulls.  I just thought the comment about not wanting to put five rounds in the same hole in a bad guy was interesting as I had never heard it talked about that one but made a lot of sense.  Let's just forget I ever brought it up

[bhunted 887]

(Note: Not cop bashing, so don't start),

 

Then again, if the cops in the LA situation had the right tools, the right training, all the flack vests, kevlar, etc., would have been moot if just ONE guy put a well placed shot in their pineapple. Instead, it took many rounds to take them down.

 

In a close in home scenario, if I couldn't get center mass, I assure you, I will place one right between the eyes. All the adrenaline in the world would not keep me from concentrating my perfect shot with accuracy. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but I don't get adrenaline rushes like I use to. I'm highly aware and calm no matter what. So I know I can place it were it need be. To not train both ways is incorrect. Both center mass and precision need to be practiced. You need to know you can pull it off. Not experiment when lives are on the line. IMHO....

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[checko 180]

(Note: Not cop bashing, so don't start),

 

Then again, if the cops in the LA situation had the right tools, the right training, all the flack vests, kevlar, etc., would have been moot if just ONE guy put a well placed shot in their pineapple. Instead, it took many rounds to take them down.

 

In a close in home scenario, if I couldn't get center mass, I assure you, I will place one right between the eyes. All the adrenaline in the world would not keep me from concentrating my perfect shot with accuracy. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but I don't get adrenaline rushes like I use to. I'm highly aware and calm no matter what. So I know I can place it were it need be. To not train both ways is incorrect. Both center mass and precision need to be practiced. You need to know you can pull it off. Not experiment when lives are on the line. IMHO....

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

You've trained in situations to somehow mimic the stress of a life of death scenario while shooting a moving 1x3 box getting consistent hits?

[67gtonut 847]

I was taught at one of my Sig courses to basically zipper upwards in a defense situation.....   meaning 2nd shoot higher then 1st, and keep heading upward till threat is stopped.....  Doing this combats the issue if Bad Guy is wearing a vest.....   

[bhunted 887]

I was taught at one of my Sig courses to basically zipper upwards in a defense situation..... meaning 2nd shoot higher then 1st, and keep heading upward till threat is stopped..... Doing this combats the issue if Bad Guy is wearing a vest.....

Bingo... I pull zippers up quick though.

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[jrfly3006 42]

Not many here can say they know how a true stress situation will cause them to shoot.. Fear , adrenaline , fatigue, muscle control, movement, environment and so on and so on WILL affect everyone in a different way.. All one can do is train and hope your body reverts back and executes what you have practiced..

 

 

For those bored or fixated on punching a big hole in a Q target.. Heres something a little different you can try to work on trigger control..

 

http://youtu.be/Azb3q8wOrV4

[raz-0 1,259]

The guy knew his stuff and was actually teaching how to shoot tight groups, and did it quite well.  I just found his comment interesting that while you want to have that skill, that five shots through the same hole in self-defense situation is sub-optimal.  Take it for what it is worth, but don't shoot the messenger

 

I find it to be an incredibly stupid statement, at least out of contexct. You could put five shots through random places in both lungs. Against someone shooitng at you, that's not going ot end thr fight real fast. You have to one of a few key things to cause massive blood loss or massive nerve disruption to cause the body to shut down and get to work on dying ASAP. Sure the 7 shots in the gut might cause sepsis and kill the dude a week from now, but that doesn't help you right now. 

 

About the only context I can see the statement not being stupid is in attempting to convince someone to not get married to focusing their limited practice budget (time and materials) on just accuracy. Might also have some merit in trying to explain that you don't have enough knowledge about hat person's specific anatomy to be able to pick out the about 1" wide area that covers the spine and/or abdominal aorta. 

[bhunted 887]

You've trained in situations to somehow mimic the stress of a life of death scenario while shooting a moving 1x3 box getting consistent hits?

Don't think is what we are referencing. If you are referring to my LA example, not everyone was running and gunning. Moving around and getting consistent shots, no. What I mean is there had to be at least one marksman crouched behind cover that could have made the crucial shots. My old Lt was one of these guys that never got excited at all in the craziest scenarios. The world could come to the end and he never lost his calm. He was impressive as hell. He would have been the one that made these type of shots. He was that good. In close quarter, I'm pretty sure I can pull it off. Even something just outside the close quarter arena.

 

The OP went from multiple scattered center mass vs. making hits to same hole type shooting.

 

So training under high stress like you indicated, no, I have not. But being at both ends of a barrel years ago, yes. I've been in situations, guns drawn and my demeanor was barely out of normal range. That's just me. I wanted to be more like my Lt.

 

I get more worked up over politics then I do in gun situations. Which is why I said, not everyone.

 

Maybe years of practicing calm in heated situations of any kind, my unofficial study of human nature, etc. Or me just not giving a shet... Dunno, but it works for me.

I get behind a gun, my whole personality changes. I have this weird sense of calm.

 

Lately, I've been practicing one handed shooting and I've impressed myself. I'm actually more accurate one handed. I will continue this training while practicing my calm with trigger finger, middle finger and weak arm/hand till I perfect it. My goal is to shoot any pattern any situation I can think of. If you can conquer precision, you can center mass patterns any way you want.

 

Bottom line, train in both scenarios. Precision and center mass methods. Not just one or the other is my only point.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad 2 using T2 Pro

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

Larry Vickers teaches...

 

Speed is fine but accuracy is Final!

 

As quoted from LAV...

 

"As anyone who has taken one of my classes can attest I am very accuracy oriented. My classes always stress a high degree of accuracy. That is because in a gunfight accuracy will almost always suffer. There are many reasons for this not the least of which is you may very well be receiving fire from your assailant. In addition there is a high likelihood that you will be moving, your enemy may be moving, and it could be in an environment of limited visibility.

All of these factors and countless others will have a negative affect on accuracy. The hope is that if you strive for a high degree of accuracy in your training that when your accuracy suffers in a gunfight, it will still be enough to get the job done. This approach has been used with great effectiveness in Tier One special operations units for years. I am a product of that school of thought, and I have trained a great many of these soldiers with that approach uppermost in my mind."

 

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/

[2Alpha 6]

 

 

I don't know what types of "Action" practice you undertake or what ranges you go to, or how long you've been attending Action Matches, but I'm going to suggest that you try doing some "Bill Drills".  These are roughly described as engaging 2-3 USPSA targets with 6 rounds each as fast as you can, from say 7 yards away (see the famously-taught 21 foot Rule for defense against edged weapons).  A sorta-decent shooter can watch the wood fly as the "D" hits get made (almost becoming Pray and Spray).  A Wanna-be doesn't know where he/she hits (or how many even hit) until it's all over.  A Good shooter (like myself) gets mostly "A's" along with a "C" or two.  A GREAT shooter gets 'em all in the "A" zone!

 

 

Dave

 

The Bill drill is 1 target 7y from a surrender start...only As count.  It is about shooting ONLY As as fast as you can.  If you shoot anything else, then the drill doesn't count.  It is a time drill not a points drill

[Smokin .50 1,907]

The Bill drill is 1 target 7y from a surrender start...only As count.  It is about shooting ONLY As as fast as you can.  If you shoot anything else, then the drill doesn't count.  It is a time drill not a points drill

 

To All:

 

If I used incorrect terminology (Bill Drill) for this, then please forgive me.  I was taught by several Masters and Grand Masters.  Let's both agree to call what I described as a "Modified Bill Drill" then, lol.

 

At the Indoor Action League in Old Bridge they teach safety AND speed, as well as trigger control.  The Speed Shoots described above are "Virginia Count":  Extra shots are BAD, and extra hits are EVEN WORSE from a scoring perspective.  Part of the drill is to transition to the next target instead of merely doing a mag dump.  It teaches one way of engaging multiple assailants (there are others including the IDPA style of putting a round into each, two into the last BG, and coming back in reverse with a second round to each).

 

My main point was that practicing shooting fast is good, but learning to know where the rounds are going as you're doing the fast shooting is "instinct".  When the buzzer sounds some folks get tunnel vision and can't see the wood chips a-flyin' when they make "D"' hits on the outer edge of the targets.  With enough practice, the hits get closer to center, and you can "call" your bad shots.

 

Action shooting is both challenging and fun, but it will never replace a real BG shooting back at you.  "Modified Bill Drills" teach all sorts of tasks, and reveal weaknesses.  Everything from a "bad draw" (improper grip) to ineffective trigger control to blown reloads....and that's IF all of the ammo feeds correctly!

[2Alpha 6]

So the El Prez  

[Newtonian 453]

I was just watching a training video that explained you don't want to shoot tight groups.  I said to myself what the heck is this guy talking about.  Then I listened some more and thought about it and it actually made sense.  Sure if you are shooting bull's-eyes or other competitions you want to, but for self defense he explained you don't want to.  What you want to do is inflict the maximum damage.  It does you little good to place five shots through the same hole in the bad guy.  You want to spread those five shots out on center mass to inflict the maximum damage on center mass.  Never heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense.

Only professional shooters, maybe, can shoot a tight group in defensive situations. Maybe. Your target is moving and you may be as well. 

 

Besides, even if all you have is a .22, all you need is one well-placed shot. 

[Jon 264]

Only professional shooters, maybe, can shoot a tight group in defensive situations. Maybe. Your target is moving and you may should be as well. 

 

Besides, even if all you have is a .22, all you need is one well-placed shot. 

 

Fixed.

[Lalo 13]

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Pincus is using a full-size B-27 scoring "replacement center" ^^^^^ for his video above.  We use the regular full-size B-27 (as well as the reduced B-34) with pneumatic target turners at Old Bridge's PPC League.  Lots of members score 345 x 360 or better on this target that we engage from 7-25 yards.  Reinforcing the basics makes better shooters.  Wanna see how many 9's, 10's and X's you can accomplish?  The League is open to non-members......

 

Dave

PPC League Chair

[alec.mc 180]

Howard,

 

You're VERY entertaining today.  As expected, the "Troops" are whipped into a frenzy.  I'm not quite sure how to take your "guy" in this training video you mentioned, but most folks reading what you wrote about the trainer would say that they guy is FULL OF CRAP, lol!  It's been said here on this thread already, and by several folks who are better shots than most Cops:  In a real gun fight, just get the center mass hits!  How you do it is up to you, but I would say to train to deliberately avoid hitting the same hole twice is something to be left up to Movie Actors and prop guns, lol!

 

I don't know what types of "Action" practice you undertake or what ranges you go to, or how long you've been attending Action Matches, but I'm going to suggest that you try doing some "Bill Drills".  These are roughly described as engaging 2-3 USPSA targets with 6 rounds each as fast as you can, from say 7 yards away (see the famously-taught 21 foot Rule for defense against edged weapons).  A sorta-decent shooter can watch the wood fly as the "D" hits get made (almost becoming Pray and Spray).  A Wanna-be doesn't know where he/she hits (or how many even hit) until it's all over.  A Good shooter (like myself) gets mostly "A's" along with a "C" or two.  A GREAT shooter gets 'em all in the "A" zone!

 

Yet another great practice is another "Speed Drill" we do at Indoor Action:  Line-up multiple targets 7-10 yards away.  Engage with (2) rounds each freestyle, RELOAD, re-engage the entire array with strong hand ONLY, the RELOAD again, then engage the entire array with weak hand ONLY.  Then you'll have some idea of what it's like to be in a gun fight.  And you probably won't have to worry about too many rounds going through the same hole(s).

 

The above isn't meant to be any sort of put-down, just a reasonable explanation of our combined thinking in response to your original post.

 

Dave

 

 

I think Dave is referring to something like the " triple bill drill " 

 

like this:

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Alec,

 

^^^^^THANKS^^^^^ for the Leatham video post.  It's EXACTLY what I was saying!

 

18 rounds, 2 mandatory mag changes in 6.44 seconds!  At OB I've shot league practice next to guys with similar times (with the entire array at 7 yards) with 6 shooters on a common firing line, as the RO goes down the line to run each shooter.  

 

And did anyone take notice of how many rounds in the A-Zone looked like "snake-eyes" or close to it?  LOTS!  But that's what I'd expect from Rob!

 

It would be cool to see Rob and JJ shoot it out since JJ switched from Open Division.....

 

Thanks again Alec!

 

Dave