Almeida update

[maintenanceguy 510]

I guess nobody addressed my long ago post. So I will ask again. If you are planning on showing in court in numbers, how do you plan on accomplishing the numbers thing when so many people here are spread out. Whichever county you are in dictates what court you will enter. So for example, Passaic County gets 10 participants in this endeavor. I see a couple problems. One, not everyone may be scheduled at the same time and two, this will not show crowds of people trying to get appoved all at once. I hope you understand what I'm saying, because I still don't see this as a viable solution... But if you are trying just to gather a large lump of denials so you can complile a list.... that I get. I also see folks in this thread saying they'd have problems getting off work. You'll realize this is a 9-3PM endeavor... Anyway, it's the show of physical presence I don't get or see. Please clarify...

That's a very good question.  Those of us who use the NJSP would be a fairly significant chunk of the applicants - that would give us a collective target.   Some PDs will approve the applications which will be denied at the Superior Court - which might be a viable target.  Or maybe there's a way to sue multiple defendants at the same time.

 

I don't have a good answer but it needs to be one of the topics for discussion on the 28th.

[bhunted 887]

Even with them, they are not all in one location, no? Mostly in rural areas. As for court, they are dependent what county you are in.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

i don't think it'll matter much the location of the applications. what will matter, is that there will be documentation that virtually all pd's are refusing these applications. then there will be documentation of the same from any judges when the appeals happen.

[bhunted 887]

i don't think it'll matter much the location of the applications. what will matter, is that there will be documentation that virtually all pd's are refusing these applications. then there will be documentation of the same from any judges when the appeals happen.

That will be your only hope. But it will still require 100's if not thousands to make a stand. The ratio of gun owners to denied apps will look very minuscule to them. Hey, I hope it works and as I said, I'm not trying to be negative. If anything, stating facts and being devil's advocate.

 

 

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[DirtyDigz 1,812]

...The ratio of gun owners to denied apps will look very minuscule to them. ....

 

The ratio of non-LEO, non-LEOSA, non-SORA applicants denied will not look miniscule.

[bhunted 887]

The ratio of non-LEO, non-LEOSA, non-SORA applicants denied will not look miniscule.

Sure it will.

Again, let's just say you put together 100 people from this group and maybe their friends. Mind you, these will be the only ones you can keep tabs on for the record presentation. This amount of people through the whole state with all the counties split up, will show low counts in each county courthouse.

 

Here are the specs for NJ:

There are 21 counties in the U.S. state of New Jersey. These counties together contain 565 municipalities, or administrative entities composed of clearly defined territory; 250 boroughs, 52 cities, 15 towns, 244 townships, and 4 villages.

 

With 21 counties, that's roughly 4 people per 100 gathered, (using 20 counties for e-z math), for each county.

Now if you get 50-100 people per county, that will make a nice report. But just working within these forum members and possibly some outsiders, I cannot see these big numbers.

 

You really have no other means afaik, in gathering who has been denied in the period of 1 year outside our ranks. This is why it cannot just be contained in a forum or small splinter groups. It has to be in amass.

 

 

 

 

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[maintenanceguy 510]

We know that NJ issues between 600 and 800 permits every year.  These numbers were part of the AG's supplimental brief in Drake v. Filko.   From the same document, we also know that every year, NJ approves somewhere between 90% and 95% of applications.  If we can get 200 to apply and be denied, NJ's numbers drop to 70% or 75% approved.  That's a lot different than 95% approved.  I'd like to have more than a couple hundred but that might be enough.

 

200 plaintiffs would be an impressive number.

[maintenanceguy 510]

I have a fantasy.  In my fantasy 300 applicants all apply at the same time.  NJ realizes that a court challenge is coming and to prevent it, they decide to approve all 300.  They figure that we'll have permits for 2 years and they can then deny us when our permits expire two years later.  At that point, we will have forgotten about this silly idea.

 

But when they approve all 300, another 10,000 sees that NJ is approving permits and they apply and NJ is screwed.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

Bhunted, not sure what your point is on continuing to examine this on a "by county" level.  The number that we're trying to change is the state total % approved.  What does it matter what county they're in?

 

The concept here is that the state gets to claim high approval numbers because no one outside of LEO/SORA applies, at least not in any kind of coordinated effort.  Even if "only" 100 people apply at the same time, that's still a strong argument that NJ does not recognize RKBA, because the stat will be "100% of non-LEO/SORA applicants who applied in (month in 2015) were denied."

 

It's a chicken/egg cycle that we need to break.

 

- No one applies outside of LEO/SORA because they know they'll be denied.

 

- Because no one applies outside of LEO/SORA, the state can factually claim they approve 99% of applications, so what's the problem?

[bhunted 887]

I recall somewhere in this thread that showing up in numbers were a factor.

My only point was low numbers trickling into the courts.

 

Now if this the goal of this thread has changed a bit and I didn't catch it, I apologize. If the only goal now is to have people get denied no matter where they are and denial records are kept as a full report, fine. I concur...

The only thing that sticks in my mind then would be is where are the final numbers going to be presented? If tomorrow you had 200 denials all in one pack, (this could take a year the way the system works, btw), who will these reports be shown to? Is a lawyer at that time going to present a class action suit based on these findings? I'm just asking.

 

The crap system we have here in NJ as you know, could care less what anyone says. Who was it? The jackarse Sweeny that said he will never allow CCW in NJ no matter what?

 

 

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[CMJeepster 2,778]

If Illinois can do it, perhaps we can too!!!  http://chicago.suntimes.com/springfield-politics/7/71/452490/concealed-carry-expansion-remains-priority-gun-group

[Newtonian 453]

If Illinois can do it, perhaps we can too!!!  http://chicago.suntimes.com/springfield-politics/7/71/452490/concealed-carry-expansion-remains-priority-gun-group

Don't forget they had a court overturn their ban. That's what started everything, not anti-gun legislators falling of their horses.

[PD2K 115]

Don't forget they had a court overturn their ban. That's what started everything, not anti-gun legislators falling of their horses.

Agreed. No way our Communist Central Planning Board aka legislators will do anything pro 2A.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

If Illinois can do it, perhaps we can too!!!  http://chicago.suntimes.com/springfield-politics/7/71/452490/concealed-carry-expansion-remains-priority-gun-group

 

The fact that Illinois and D.C. did it both angers me and gives me hope.

[jackandjill 683]

"The Illinois State Rifle Association and IllinoisCarry.com held their annual Illinois Gun Owner Lobby Day ..." ...

 

Having something like that on calendar makes it habbit to attend every year..a good thing..

 

Is there such day that ANJRPC or other 2A organizations in NJ hold ?

[DeerSlayer 241]

My old man just moved to Illinois, he is applying for his CCW permit. You have to obtain your FID card there first before they will issue CCW. A guy he works with told him it takes about 2 weeks for everything. Makes me hate NJ more, but happy for my dad since he can carry for self protection now.

[Newtonian 453]

With 21 counties, that's roughly 4 people per 100 gathered, (using 20 counties for e-z math), for each county.

Now if you get 50-100 people per county, that will make a nice report. But just working within these forum members and possibly some outsiders, I cannot see these big numbers.

 

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Not every gun owner, not everyone interested in concealed carry, posts in these forums! 

 

I think 1000 applications is eminently possible. 50 per county.

 

Think of all the folks who pass through CR, GFH, RTSP, and HG (the four that I'm familiar with). We should have a website that clearly explains our goals and procedure. Print the website address on a flier or business card and distribute to all the ranges. Do the same with gun shops.

 

This same sort of strategy could be implemented for a get-out-the-vote strategy but nobody's interested in that B.S. 

[boo 6]

...

 

This same sort of strategy could be implemented for a get-out-the-vote strategy but nobody's interested in that B.S. 

 

On a related note, Sweeney recall effort has formally begun.

 

http://www.recallsweeney.com/2015/03/19/recall-launched/

[Newtonian 453]

On a related note, Sweeney recall effort has formally begun.

 

http://www.recallsweeney.com/2015/03/19/recall-launched/

This is total bullshit, like the Almeida litigation. 

 

You get rid of Sweeney. Great. There are 100 assholes waiting behind him to take his spot. They'll all win. Then what?  

 

Do you make a list and recall every single other anti in the legislature? See you in the year 2525.

 

I don't believe in recalls anyway, even for this guy. If you can't win a point by winning an election, a real election, you don't deserve to win. If you can't get enough tax-paying, hard-working voters to go out in the general election then a recall is stupid. 

 

The problem with NJ gun rights is that everybody thinks small. Everybody thinks within the crooked, corrupt system. 

 

 

* **** ******* ******** ******* governor and ****** ** ** **** *****

 

That is not morse code. 

[bhunted 887]

But maybe if Swiney gets canned, the next one won't be so daring.

 

 

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[PD2K 115]

On a related note, Sweeney recall effort has formally begun.

 

http://www.recallsweeney.com/2015/03/19/recall-launched/

 

Nice! Hopefully this will become a reality and a 2A advocate will finally emerge.

[maintenanceguy 510]

Not every gun owner, not everyone interested in concealed carry, posts in these forums! 

 

I think 1000 applications is eminently possible. 50 per county.

 

Think of all the folks who pass through CR, GFH, RTSP, and HG (the four that I'm familiar with). We should have a website that clearly explains our goals and procedure. Print the website address on a flier or business card and distribute to all the ranges. Do the same with gun shops.

 

This same sort of strategy could be implemented for a get-out-the-vote strategy but nobody's interested in that B.S. 

We think alike.  I'll PM you.

[Kevin125 4,772]

As soon as you remove the set of people who are applying because they're employed as security/armored car guards or with law enforcement history that percentage goes way down.

I'm catching up but a big piece of that 90% has to be retired LEOs. To carry after retirement, they have to apply and I think go through training. But the 90% thing is BS. As we all know.

 

Back to reading.

 

By the way... Most if not all of you posting here seemed to be pretty informed and articulate well on this subject. Want to add that in itself is fairly impressive.

[mipafox 438]

 

Nice! Hopefully this will become a reality and a 2A advocate will finally emerge.

 

 

It doesn't just "become" something. You have to sort of do something to make something happen.

[Kevin125 4,772]

@newtonian and maintenanceguy. I also think 1000 is possible, but will take some effort. And I think it makes a big difference in how this effort is perceived outside our ranks. Info at shops and ranges can help but I think that number will require reaching people through other more direct means. It would helpful if the NRA would provide an email list or if they don't hand that out, perform the email blast on this groups behalf.

[SJG 253]

If you want info on denials, file an online OPRA request with the State Police and see what you get. It is like a federal FOIA request but for info from a State agency

[mipafox 438]

Bhunted, not sure what your point is on continuing to examine this on a "by county" level.  The number that we're trying to change is the state total % approved.  What does it matter what county they're in?

 

You don't even have to do that. You are doing it as a group. Give it a name. Presumably you have a list of people applying, have everybody update their progress and document their submittal date, court date, and final disposition. See how many from your group get approved. A hundred people make a pact to apply and all go through the process during the same timeframe, the number will be zero, or close to it. The meaning of the result is pretty obvious unless there is something in common wrong with all of you.

 

The only reason people are thinking in terms of state numbers is it has always been one or two people vs. the state before. The one or two people walked in with one or two discrete results and the state responded with the state's best numbers (the whole ball of wax).

[mipafox 438]

If you want info on denials, file an online OBRA request with the State Police and see what you get. It is like a federal FOIA request but for info from a State agency

It's called OPRA and I think those records are exempt.

[maintenanceguy 510]

You don't even have to do that. You are doing it as a group. Give it a name. Presumably you have a list of people applying, have everybody update their progress and document their submittal date, court date, and final disposition. See how many from your group get approved. A hundred people make a pact to apply and all go through the process during the same timeframe, the number will be zero, or close to it. The meaning of the result is pretty obvious unless there is something in common wrong with all of you.

 

The only reason people are thinking in terms of state numbers is it has always been one or two people vs. the state before. The one or two people walked in with one or two discrete results and the state responded with the state's best numbers (the whole ball of wax).

 

I've been building a website to do some thinking on paper - or on monitor.  One of the features is exactly this - it can do this tracking for us.  Someone visits the site, learns about the project, and then registers to apply with the group on a certain date.   As they progress through qualifying, getting their letter of need, filing the application, getting a court date, etc they come back to the site and check off milestones.  We'd have a database of who was where in the process.  In fact, I've got it up and running in the sandbox and it seems to be working. 

[JohnnyB 4,326]

Good for you Ryan! Thank you for being so proactive in this matter! This board is overloaded with reactive posts

with all of us complaining about how bad the PRNJ sucks. We have finally stopped the pouting and are starting to DO

SOMETHING!!!

This is how we can make a change. I know Angelo is waiting to hear back from an attorney. I have an attorney friend who practices

criminal defense. I will ask him for his opinion as well or he may know a NJ gun lawyer that I can speak with!

 

Has anyone worked on a list of questions we need to ask at this point. If so, please post them here and I will try to get some answers!