Zeke

What is better for home defense?

45 posts in this topic

BEST! Go to the pound and get the nastiest pit, boxer, mastiff, rottie, Then a 12 ga pump! Maybe a mop and bucket after!

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1 minute ago, Vlad G said:

Which ever you use best and trust most after proper testing. Having per-conceived notion about whole classes of weapons is foolish, and I prefer to think Im not a foolish person.

Come on. We can generalize. Men are stronger than woman. Blacks are faster than whites. Republicans are smarter than Democrats. Pumps are more reliable than semis.

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Seeing the other thread, I do say that pumps are more reliable than semi-autos. At a certain point, my 11-87s stops ejecting lighter 12 Gauge loads. There is such a wide spread of shotgun ammo performance that it is very hard to get a semi-auto to function with everything.

 

In regards to seeing more failures with pumps, your argument kind of stops when you mention short stroking. Sorry, but that is a user induced failure... due to lack of training. A properly operated pump shotgun does not fail with light loads, due to an external force on the action (judging you have the strength to run it). Look at the 1986 FBI Miami shootout... SA Mireles ran an 870 one handed, and put rounds towards the target (only hit the one suspect in the feet with the first round, but everything else went into the vehicle they were trying to escape in). He stopped using it when it ran out of ammo. Reliability wise, most traditional designs (pump and semi-auto) feed from tube magazines... which are for the most part, pretty reliable for shotgun ammo (you have issues with pointed rifle ammo in those magazines). So, an operation done by hand will usually be more reliable than one using the power of a shotgun shell to accomplish a similar task (gas, recoil, etc).

 

Any defensive firearm should be trained on. If you short stroke a pump in training, either train some more or revaluate your firearm choice. But that, in itself, doesn't make a semi-auto more reliable... it makes a semi-auto easier to run. If you are going with a semi-auto, get yourself confident that the shells you will use for defense will function.

 

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Something to consider in the discussion of pump vs semi for reliability. In a self defense scenario, I do not hold that a pump is more reliable than a semi. Under the stress of a real life encounter I think there is more likelihood for a user induced malfunction with a pump over a semi.

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10 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Something to consider in the discussion of pump vs semi for reliability. In a self defense scenario, I do not hold that a pump is more reliable than a semi. Under the stress of a real life encounter I think there is more likelihood for a user induced malfunction with a pump over a semi.

Perhaps.  But I would feel more confident in being able to rectify short stroking a pump in a stressful situation than I would fixing a malfunction in a SA caused by ammo or the firearm.  It all boils down to training, comfort and preference.

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20 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Something to consider in the discussion of pump vs semi for reliability. In a self defense scenario, I do not hold that a pump is more reliable than a semi. Under the stress of a real life encounter I think there is more likelihood for a user induced malfunction with a pump over a semi.

I see this in a lot of steel matches at Old Bridge.  But, when the semi auto has an issue, it usually takes some time to clear.

Good point though @Shane45

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Alex, my point is that the semi is going to be the same reliability it was before. If it was reliable before, even under stress it will likely not change. The pump is more susceptible to input from the user. I believe short stroking is the most common occurrence for stress induced malfs in a pump. And although the users comfort in remediation is important, the question was reliability. I wanted to provoke some consideration as it seems many are just assuming the pump is more reliable. From a purely mechanical standpoint, perhaps a case can be made. But add the human element in and it may in fact be the other way around. I don't use a shotgun in an SD role, it doesn't fit my environment. But if I was, I would use my semi over my pump.

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1 minute ago, Shane45 said:

My point is that the semi is going to be the same reliability it was before. If it was reliable before, even under stress it will likely not change. The pump is more susceptible to input from the user. I believe short stroking is the most common occurrence for stress induced malfs in a pump. And although the users comfort in remediation is important, the question was reliability. I wanted to provoke some consideration as it seems many are just assuming the pump is more reliable. From a purely mechanical standpoint, perhaps a case can be made. But add the human element in and it may in fact be the other way around. I don't use a shotgun in an SD role, it doesn't fit my environment. But if I was, I would use my semi over my pump.

Excellent points

I use a pump because I can control ME.  I cannot control errors made inside the gun.  I know that if I rack the slide, the empty shell will fly out and a new one will go in.  Like it always has.  But in a semi auto, I'm depending on a machine to do the work for me.  I'd rather cut out the machine part and just do it myself.   But, to each his own. 

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1 minute ago, Ray Ray said:

Excellent points

I use a pump because I can control ME.  I cannot control errors made inside the gun.  I know that if I rack the slide, the empty shell will fly out and a new one will go in.  Like it always has.  But in a semi auto, I'm depending on a machine to do the work for me.  I'd rather cut out the machine part and just do it myself.   But, to each his own. 

That's what it should ultimately boil down to.  What YOU like.  What YOU feel comfortable with.  What fits YOUR situation.  There is no flat out right or wrong answer.

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On that I think we can all agree. However, my interests are in free flowing information. I like discussion because it can bring things I never considered to my doorstep. Likewise, I pass along information someone else may have not considered but could be relevant for them or their scenario. We have all seen the person that picked X because the were beholding to a concept. But when presented with a better understanding they understood what they liked or what they were comfortable with....was flawed. Thus the learning curve we are all on.

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16 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

A Mossberg 500 Persuader in 12 gauge loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 00Buck OR Federal Flight Control in 00Buck.  

 

Done 

Stop the PRESSES!  Raymond is no longer recommending birdshot as the ideal HD round!?

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3 hours ago, Purple Patrick said:

Okay screw the ferret 7b8188c7adbd0588c5e4d9c86f431367.jpg

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

Tactical turtle!

1 hour ago, JT Custom Guns said:

Personally I like a good Flame Thrower, but clean up can be 

time consuming.............

Oven cleaner brah!

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