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Games are games, and fights are fights, different things. However, the above makes a few assumption I personally found to be false. 1) Yes, competition shooters MOST of the time know the stage. Also, most of the time they have 5min to calculate all possible scenarios, movement, reload plans, etc. A good shooter may run 5-10 plans through his mind before coming to the line and executing the one he or she believes is best. They do that for hundreds of stages. Eventually they get pretty damn good at looking a situation and making a plan REAL quick. 2) I don't think there is any situation in which being able to handle your equipment with no thought is not a useful skill. I have met very few people outside the competitive arena that are one with their equipment, and yes some of them were cops or military, HE for example is completely at home with gear, but most police and military shooters I've met are actually really not at that level. Yes it is game, but I can't think of a situation where being completely in tune with your gear is a bad thing. 3) Most 3gun shooters I know use retention holster, either level 2 or 3. No one wants their gun re-positioning itself into a bush while running around the woods. Some shoot customs guns, some do not. I do ok with my darn near stock Glock. Mostly it is not the equipment but the shooter, within reason. 4) My 3gun belt is not a heck of a lot different then a duty belt. At any point it may carry quite a few pounds of weight, between handgun, multiple mags for it and rifle and a maybe a box of 12ga or more. It is not light, but you are right on the vest and other things 5) Stress is a strange thing, but every competitor I know gets stressed applied profusely , they almost all get adrenaline dumps, jitters, stomach butterflies, some barely sleep before major matches, all the flight or fight responses are in play if you are serious about it, and you get to dwell on it for minutes or hours or sometime days. You get to build up that stress and continuously balance with your mental game. I know it is hard to believe unless your go through it, but at the higher levels of competition stress and dealing with it are critical. Again, games are games and fights are fights. To many game shooters assume they would be awesome tier -5 ninja face shooters, but the also to many of the folks on the other side of the equation have a poor understanding what is involved in the competitive shooting world.

You are going to be quicker because you don't have a decision making process... Find target, shoot. That type of training works for your application. Put a living person next to your target and see if your times are effected. Different means to different ends. At your next match try a level 3 holster, kevlar vest and duty belt (weighed down with a baton, cuffs, flashlight, radio, mag pouch, OC and medical pouch). Don't forget to use a box stock gun. Don't look at the course of fire until you're up either. Actually, disregard. It still wouldn't introduce stress.

Gents, with respect... the OP cited "operators". Not LE. I took that to mean MILITARY SO, Delta etc and in the LE realm, SWAT, Hercules and the like. I didn't take that to mean retired, WWs, and others that continue their affinity for tactical situations by competing in 3-gun matches etc. If the challenge is for current "operators" such as QRF, SEAL or RECON operators, then I must stand by my statements. If you are going to go to your nearest donut shop and challenge any LE in attendance then I'm with you. I'm not casting aspersions on your local LEOs, but as you all state, higher level competitors intensely practice, I assumed the challenge would be to "operators" that have similar commitment to their training and equipment.

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth. " Mike Tyson

Here are some simple, common sense rules when you find yourself in an encounter with a law enforcement officer: How Not To Get You Ass Kicked By The Police by Chris Rock.

Are you ready to be your own R-O? Wanna come to Old Bridge for a visit to check it out with your daughter and watch her shoot in any position? tomk62 & I are both Old Bridge members. We have folks from all over Essex Co. come to shoot! Face the facts: PA ranges are cheap, 'cept for the TIME & GAS it takes to get there & back. That TIME limits the number of visits per year. At the end of the day, you can candy-ass it by being cheap on the initial outlay & then be forced to spend money on gas & wear and tear OR you can just pony-up the SAME money up front & show-up as many times as you'd like since it's less than 1/2 the travel time . I started my son when he was 4 years old. Single-shot .22 youth model bolt action on a bench on a rest. If my kid did it at 4, then a 8 year old is no problem. School's almost out for the summer. So do ya wanna spend more time drivin' or shootin'? Just ask and tomk62 or any other member will help you.

Guys this is just a ploy to drum up more shooters to the match he has been promoting / running....lol Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

Thanks for the replies, guys. I don't think Range 14 can happen. According to its forum, the age limit is 10. No dice. SJSC is too far, but looks really great. Old Bridge looks like an option. I sent an email about membership info. Membership is a bit pricy, but if this is a long-term solution, it's potentially worth it. Plus, it's 40 minutes closer to me than Cherry Ridge. I'm also looking at a bunch of places just across the PA border. Membership is way cheaper than NJ places.

I understand, but one aspect of a case cannot be examined without context of the whole incident. Griz noted that "reasonable" is the wildcard and for a good reason. We all hate the Graves act because it takes all judicial perogative out of the process. The reason our system of laws uses judges and not a checklist to determine guilt or punishment is because each case is unique and the circumstances can dictate a departure from the black and white "letter of the law". So "reasonable" is purposefully left to a judge or jury to determine in each case. One other, maybe intended, consequence of these "guidelines" or mandatory minimum sentences is that it concentrates the power over defendants in the prosecutorial realm. In essence it politicizes the process and puts transgressions of "administrative" regulations, like the possession of a 16 round magazine, without a weapon, ammunition, a crime being committed or criminal intent, into the same section as a gangbanger's conviction for actual criminal actions on the prosecutor's resume. Feeling safer yet? Reference Mr. Preet Bharara and his crusade against corporate malefeasence or Eric Schneiderman and his overt attacks on DJT and the 2nd amendment. Getting back to our armed-behind-the-bank-snoozer. The cop had every reason to be suspicious. I may be a burger flipper but I would still have been reasonably suspicious. In the decision, which I read, the cop's spidey senses started tingling when he saw the car and the defendant didn't do himself any favors the the subsequent contact. He was irresponsible and probably a threat to minimally the cop. You can't use anything in this case as example of anything related to a guy going to the range, being a responsible gun owner, and stopping to take a pee. This guy was a douche. I don't wish this crap on anyone. But he did everyting wrong. The criminal defense attorney on the original case didn't have a lot to hang his hat on. So to put a bow on it, remember "Death Wish?" (Boy there's a movie begging for a remake) after Bronson got a taste of vigilantism he went for a walk after dark in Central Park swinging an expensive camera. Of course there was somebody ready to mug him. He was asking for it. Just like sleeping behind a bank at 3 am with firearms in plain view and a loaded glock, on your way from Maine to Texas by way of Readington, NJ. Reasonable suspicion? Fuck yea. Even for a burger flipper.

Re: State v. Renninger Not a good case to support not taking a piss on the way to the range. The guy was an idiot, asshole or criminal with really bad judgement, a sketchy story and incomplete documentation for the car as well as multiple license plates. Remove the firearms from the equation. He's still broken the three simple rules. Bad judgement was an asshole and didn't keep his mouth shut who thinks this guy, ostensibly traveling from Maine to Texas, in a car that's not his, sketchy paperwork with guns on his back seat and a loaded handgun, should be stoping behind a bank to take a snooze? Shit man, a Florida neighborhood watch member would have shot him... the 2nd amendment isn't a defense for stupid. The 1st amendment may be, but that's a horse of another color entirely.

SJSC is fine with it so long as the parent is supervising at all times. Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk

I have brought my kids to Range 14 at Ft. Dix when they were 8 and never had a problem. I don't know what the official age is but I have seen many kids there under 10. I got to know a few of the range officers and asked them what he minimum age was and they said as long as the kid can handle the gun and is safe they don't have a problem with them. My son was 7 when we started shooting there.

You don't have to answer that question. Politely decline any invitations to discuss what is in your vehicle.

my tricons amazingly still have some light to them they are about 28 years old. they are on my 41AE Baby Eagle.

I have no time to reread anything. Best to just shoot my mouth off instead of actually being concerned with 'context'.......

Running on borrowed time and didn't get to watch the vid even though Mr. Leatham is one of my all time favorites so I was going off of OP's title. Let me summarize by saying that competition is very likely to gain you the aptitude But Im not sure you would survive your fist mission

"I do think they would hold their own." I respectfully disagree. Raz covered a lot of my thoughts. Team coms, night ops etc etc. So much more needed for the survivability of spec ops war fighting. This was underlined for me when some D-Boys toys came into the shop. They had COMPLETELY custom switches made for their rifles enabling them to turn on each different type of light, IR laser etc etc. It was abundantly clear that at least the owners of this equipment were HEAVILY focused on low light, no light ops. I have only seen the low light / no light competitions in the rarest of circumstances. So how exactly would a competitor hold their own in real life ops doing things they likely have not been exposed to? I haven't seen much team operations in competition either so again, new ground for them. I don't hold anything against 3 gunners at all mind you. I just don't think its a ticket to the show. This is much in the same vein of how there are PSR competitors out here that are fantastic shots and have hyper developed precision shooting skills. But it doesn't make them a sniper because the shooting skill is only a fraction of the overall skill set needed.

They haven't changed in YEARS, so they're the same as was mentioned in the last thread about range fees, lol! That being said, $384 annual, plus a $300 initiation fee (only HALF of which is due at sign-up: $192 + $150 = $342). So it's $342 for the first 6 months & $342 for the balance if you join in December. Dues are PRO-RATED since the club's fiscal year is identical to the calendar year. So someone joining on the second Sunday of June (that's when the club runs its' sign-ups) wouldn't pay a full years' dues plus an initiation and then be immediately subjected to an invoice for another full years' dues. Cecil, here's some more answers: 1) There isn't one. You're your own R-O, so HANDLE IT! Just use proper judgement & techniques so kid doesn't sweep herself, you, or anybody else. I trained a 4 year old by leaving the youth model bolt action rifle IN the Caldwell sand bag & pointing the muzzle down range & using a "safe chamber indicator", aka a "flag". And always having the child at your side while changing targets so no one can see a kid near the bench unattended 2) Dues is all you pay plus the aforementioned one-time initiation fee. No nickels & dimes. Show-up 8 days a week if you'd like to. Bring a cooler for lunch & don't forget the D-Lead Wipes! Hell, most members fawn over kids at the range & ask their parents if they need anything like spare targets, ammo, etc. "Here Kid, try my .22 Ruger with bi-pod & $300 scope" is quite common (with the parent's OK of course). 3) A family member that lives with you is NOT a Guest, so bring her 8 days a week. A "Guest" is an adult over 18 years of age that doesn't reside with you. The same guest with the same member is welcome to visit up to 3 times a year for "casual plinking". If one of your guests shows-up with or w/o you to shoot a league match, the league appearance DOESN'T COUNT towards their "3 allowed guest appearances". You can have UP TO 3 guests at once, but since we don't provide a R-O, YOU'RE THE R-O, so you don't shoot while they're shooting. You're allowed to bring Guests AFTER your probationary period (usually 6 months, but depends how well the league chairs evaluate your gun handling skills). So the more your face is seen at league matches NOT screwing the pooch, the sooner you're allowed to finish paying your initiation. This cuts-down on STUPID & makes you responsible enough to BE a R-O watching the firing line Lots of forum members are club members. I happen to be a former Board of Trustees member & current Match Director for the club. If you wanna visit, just let me know

It seems like the wind closed an eight foot gate that goes from the barn to the arena. It's cattle fencing and it has a 1 inch diameter metal stud that catches into the lock. I believe as she squeezed back through the gate to the barn she got pinched between the wooden fence and the stud on that gate. There was a little tuft of hair on the wooden fence, so thats my theory.

Come on man, it's actually been 7 months since this thread last died. I don't smoke cigars, I don't like cutting my grass and don't want to talk about that, I do all my own plumbing, I don't want to talk about my truck, no one here wants to talk about my harley (I kinda don't either, I miss my r6), I'm tired of the "getting pulled over" thread every 6 months... So let's make fun of each other on this subject lol. At least it's gun related.

That's awesome, I guess I should clarify, this is going to sound mean but thats not my intention. Believe me when i say im laughing while im typing this. When im on this forum and I say operators, pretty much what I'm talking about is the guys on this forum that know everything but don't shoot matches and they pay thousands of dollars to go to a class that they will never need because they can't carry a gun. I'm talking about police officers, swat team guys, anyone who carrys a gun for work. People who dont shoot matches and think they are a better shooter than someone who does. I'm talking about the keyboard commandos that know everything and no one here has ever actually met. I'm talking about the guy who labels himself an operator and brags about it. The few real operators I know will never talk about that stuff, hell one of them almost never says a word. Now Don't go getting your panties all wadded up I would love to shoot with any of you, I'll even let you look at my guns lol.

The the opposite would hold true, no? Bring a top notch 3-gun guy to the raid on the bin laden compound and he'd hold his own? The only issue is that if he didn't he'd most probably be FUCKING DEAD.

They couldn't decide if the decision should be printed on Charmin Ultra Strong or Charmin Ultra Soft.

You could either think he is too old school OR that he is just keeping it real. Either way, it's an interesting video from a guy that knows his stuff.

I'm enjoying reading this exchange. As Griz has noted, "Reasonable" is open to interpretation. IMHO if we let Cops & Judges be more "reasonable" instead of boxing them into a corner a-la the Graves Act w/ a mandatory minimum for a hand gun possession charge, folks like Shaneen Allen wouldn't have spent 40 days in jail for crossing the NJ border with a PA LTCF and .380 Bersa & a mag's worth of hollow points (the automatic add-on charge). If we had more "reasonable" discretion allowed in our laws: OK, no wants, no warrants, LTCF presented with your DL for a MV stop after crossing the border. A MISTAKE! NO intent. NO gun running w/ unregistered hand guns. NO case of .380 HP in the trunk to feed the Gang Bangers. No Tech-9 Evil Death machine. Turn her around & tell her to go put the gun back in Philly---OR---escort her to a Jersey FFL so the Bersa can be "booked-in" & shipped to a Phiily FFL & send her on her way. OR make her sign the gun over at HQ & have them ship it to a Philly FFL for a (fine) nuisance fee. Yeah, I know, a pipe dream. But sometimes solutions are found in pipe dreams . What would a "reasonable person" expect to happen to themselves for transporting into the People's Republik of New Jermany a registered loaded firearm while carrying a CCW permit issued by their neighboring resident state for that firearm? I guess the answer depends upon what you're trained to think if you're OTJ or how naive you are? My marriage license works in PA, right? At the end of the day, we all realize that the laws need changed. At the end of the day if National Reciprocity comes to NJ (for real, w/o Weinberg-style forced limitations), NJ Cops & Prosecutors will need re-trained on what's "REASONABLE" and threads about stopping to pee won't get so much "ink"...

So .. all the marksmanship teams of all the military branches that attend all the major 3gun matches? All the guys I met with missing limbs and eyes and other injuries obtained during the recent unpleasantness that shoot 3gun ? All the LEO/swat people I meet shooting matches? You mean all those guys who then take what they learned back to their Units to teach others? I guess their experience is not real. This argument creeps up like every 6 months and it is an idiotic conflict we should not be having. The tactical and competition fields are different but symbiotic and complimentary. We can all learn from each other and the smart people on either side do. When the tactical world is now getting all sorts of moist over Roland Specials, they forget that 10 years ago they were dismissing gamers with their comp'ed and red doted pistols. Never mind that the competition world debugged and developed the hardware that they are lusting over today, and they it has been decades to evolution to bring it current state. Never mind, that the race rifles of two decades ago are now the hotness of the tactical world with free floated handguards, low power variable scopes, offset sights, etc. The average competitor I know shoots more in a year the most LEOs do over their entire career, the gear you trust your life to, competitor have worn out and broken and provided feedback to the manufactures in how to make it better.

What Old Bridge questions do you have?

Vlad, you shooting a Glock now? What happened to the m&p?

Not that I've heard Ray Ray. Still just extension floor plate kits.

Could not have said it better. I have a ton of Respect for LEO and the job that they do, real life risks, especially those working in rougher areas.... but I also know the LEO represented on the forum... ARE NOT your typical cops with how they feel about guns. I know of 2 cops who even dread going for qualifications or having to practice (NYC) and 1 who even hated to have to wear a gun. At various matches over the years I have met and run into shooters who just happen to be LEO.... and LEO who just happened to go try out a match. The difference is vast. I would agree that the average LEO, by nature of the firearm requirement would be a better marksman than the average gun owner..... BUT.... the average guy/gal who goes to shoot any action type match (USPSA/IDPA/3 Gun) would be a better marksman than the average LEO. So for "gun skills", I would give it to the gamers. NOW... if we are talking about WAR and not getting killed in zombie apocolypse.... wait.... Zombies don't soot back. Ok, in WAR or some natural disaster, I would easily agree than an LEO would be more likely to survive. Match folks do not get shot back at..... But if it is Zombies.... gamers all the way. =)

I see no problem with what he did. The bad guy was in the process of drowning defenseless babies. No time to warn. Am evil act that must be stopped right now. I can't see a prosecutor in any state going after this. Most prosecutors are too busy to spend time "sending a message".

I had a BBQ last Sunday with 20 or so people standing around outside and kids playing on the lawn when a 350 pounder decided to pay us a visit. It didn't come directly toward us but also didn't seem fazed by the amount of people out in the yard. I've found the dumpster at my shop flipped on it's side already once this year - That's going to be a large bear doing that. The last one near my shop that flipped my dumpster was hit by a car on route 23 and killed - Fish and Game picked it up, it was over 600 pounds. Here in NW Jersey, we don't worry non stop about bears, but you must always be vigilant about them and keep your trash inside until garbage pick up day.

Your 3 gun match is still on the game side of the fence. Are you saying you can beat an Operator at a game? Ok. But I bet the Operator can beat you at war!

Considering it's on CNN, if you feel like yelling at your tv tonight then tune in.

Nothing wrong with guys having minivans. As long as you have a gaggle of kids. If your single or married with no kids and you have a minivan, just keep it to yourself. SUVs are the new minivans.

Likely some degree of astigmatism in your eyes, and not a problem with the dot. Here's how you can prove it to yourself - While looking through the optic, rotate it clockwise or counter-clockwise (keep your barrel pointed forward, but rotate your rifle so the left side or right side is facing the floor). If the pattern of a few smaller dots does NOT rotate when you rotate the optic, then it is astigmatism in your eye that is making you see the pattern. If the pattern DOES rotate when you rotate the optic, then it's a problem with the optic.

Don't fuck it up! no pressure

The details is what makes a case or an argument. Reninger is a poor example of "reasonable deviation". If you want to give an example you need to state or refer to details. I do agree the laws in NJ need to be more specific. However, our system is built on argument. There's many cases where someone actually did the crime but the defense had a better argument and the guy got off.

I don't find the eye box being a problem at 25x, I do however find the FFP reticle being a problem at 25x. The reticle becomes so large at 25x that the cross hair can cover an object the size of a car at a half mile. I find myself using the 12-15x magnification range the most.

Reninger is not a good example. The court ruled the search was okay under the circumstances that were present. Not just plain view of a gun case. Sleeping in a bank parking lot at 3 am will attract police attention anywhere. The subject was nervous, he didn't have registration or insurance id, he had two sets of plates, the cop saw the gun cases and he lied to police, he wasn't transporting the guns IAW FOPA. Being a former police officer I would think he would be aware of FOPA. Just a few things I picked out from the appellate decision. Not showing up for his own trial certainly didn't help his appeal. Nappen said what I would expect a defense attorney to say but he didn't state all the facts. I agree. NJ gun laws suck. They are the result of trying to make something illegal except what we permit. Someone should start a thread listing all the people who have been arrested transporting firearms and stopped to use the bathroom, get gas, or something to eat. I have asked this question at least dozens of times and no one's come up with one. There has to be at least one in the last nearly 50 years "reasonable deviation" has been the law in NJ. There has to be at least one in the past 10 years where everything hits the internet. I don't know of any. Please show me one case. Not long ago there was some phony baloney story going around that a guy was arrested after dropping someone off returning from the range. There were reactions here, on other forums and Facebook pages to what turned out to be a phony story. Some dummy who's a security guard who wants to be a cop puts his gun in his glove compartment and forgets it's there. Maybe he "forgot" so he could impress his girlfriend. Seems to me he's not much of a responsible gun owner if he doesn't know where his only gun is. While the wording "reasonable deviation" leaves a lot to interpretation it's worked okay in NJ. No one has been arrested for an "unreasonable" deviation. Yes, it needs to be changed but there's no stimulus to do so.

The only special thing I can tgink of is lapping your receiver. You can buy the tool for $25 or borrow mine. Also if you don't have a tight fit you can "bed" the barrel extension with locktite or even a tin shim. Youtube is your friend.

You said you KNEW some states MUST have marked police cars for traffic tickets and when asked you can't name one..... You completely made that statement up. Cmon Ray! Why do you do this to yourself?

How many shotguns do you think the "Military" has Ray? How many shotguns do you think LEO Agencies have?

Used rope eh? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This thought started with the police shooting the bear at the shore. I was listening to it the whole ride home from work that night. When I got home my kids went back to feed the horses. After they finished they said that one of the horses was bleeding and looked like she was bitten by something, and it was high up on her side near her butt. So naturally when i went outside my gun was with me, and I was just thinking what could have happened?

Current carz.. 1999 Crown Vic and 2005 Grad Marquis. Yeah..yeah.. Old cars for an old fart...but.. they are roomy and comfortable and target stands fit nicely in the trunk along with other goodies.. Worst car ever. 1947 Fraser.. That car just did not like hills...any kind of hill..... Best looking cars... Mercedes 190SL and 64 GTO ragtop..... 58 Chevy Impala Most fun cars..... 52 MG TD and 56 Porsche Speedster and 32 Chevy

3 simple rules. Use your best judgement. Don't be an asshole. Shut the fuck up.

At least Recoil Range did not accept pre construction membership money and then wait..The other Monroe range took money and people have been waiting over 2 years, not right. I had a feeling the Union Hill club would open sooner anyway(politics) if and when,