FBI dumping .40 and going to a 9mm

[tony357 386]

When police depts switched from smiths to glocks the market was flooded with 40 cal mags and smiths, i purchased my only 40 cal and five mags for about 400 bucks..

[tuktuk 16]

People will never agree on which caliber does a better job. All calibers can connect and not bring a suspect down.... All calibers can connect and do bring a suspect down. We all know that for any agency, department or organization a lot more goes into the decision on what caliber / firearm to

Choose besides the ballistics/statistics.

politics, budget, personal preferences, lobbying, corruption and many other factors play role in the final decision ...

so while it's a good and sufficient start to pay attention to what LE and military community are using it is not a golden standard ....

[Smokin .50 1,907]

People will never agree on which caliber does a better job. All calibers can connect and not bring a suspect down.... All calibers can connect and do bring a suspect down. We all know that for any agency, department or organization a lot more goes into the decision on what caliber / firearm to

Choose besides the ballistics/statistics.

politics, budget, personal preferences, lobbying, corruption and many other factors play role in the final decision ...

so while it's a good and sufficient start to pay attention to what LE and military community are using it is not a golden standard ....

 

^^^^^THIS^^^^^  

 

Politics is what got the FBI Agents killed.  They were told their wondernines could stop anything, so with a false sense of security, combined with piss-poor training they went up against a couple BAD ASS rifle-toting Bank Robbers with their wondernine hand guns and a 12 ga. with buckshot and LOST!  And the Bad Guys rifles were visible in their hands PRIOR to the boxing-in stop!

 

Back in the days of Bonnie & Clyde, the Good Guys brought a BAR to go THRU a car door with 150 grain M2 BALL.....   Sometimes the "Old ways" WORKED!

[raz-0 1,259]

I suspect the number one factor in this decision is the ammunition supply chain. I'd expect to see other federal agencies follow.

 

Whenever we get panic buying, the pipeline gets cranked down to .223 and 9mm or close enough to it. I suspect some conversations happened between suppliers on open ended contracts and certain agencies regarding what might make procurement most stable.

[Shane45 807]

Well .. sure. On the other hand .22 kills a lot of people, I think more then any other cartridge? Are you saying the FBI should move to it?

As we all know statistics dont tell a complete story. For example lets assume that the vast majority of deaths by .22 are suicides, it doesnt really speak to its effectiveness in armed conflict unless your adversary always lets you put your pistol in their mouth right?

 

I'd be fine if the FBI did move to 9. I was never a fan of the .40. As civies we dont have a lot of the political, 1 size fits many etc etc issues the caliber and pistol selection process holds for departments. I just dont see any advantage for the .40.

 

Im sure we all agree shot placement is king. But what else should we consider? Its a near lottery ticket level of chance we will be engaged in a gunfight. But what would you want on your side if you were the unlucky ticket holder? For me it comes down to do I want a 2 bad guy gun or a 3 bad guy gun? An 8+1 .45 is probably in the 2 BG catagory where a 15+1 is surely in the 3 BG catagory. But I suspect when you start entering into the 15+ round catagory, a civilian is going to run out of time long before they run out of ammo 99.9% of the time.

 

My views on the subject was that a 2bg gun/caliber was sufficient. But the Kenyan Mall and the NYC biker incidents make a good case for capacity.

[illy 1]

Politics is what got the FBI Agents killed.  They were told their wondernines could stop anything, so with a false sense of security, combined with piss-poor training they went up against a couple BAD ASS rifle-toting Bank Robbers with their wondernine hand guns and a 12 ga. with buckshot and LOST! 

 

 

 

It wasn't just the 9mm, it's that they were loaded w/ the sh1tty 1980s 115gr Winchester Silvertips, known for jacket/lead separation, unreliable expansion and 7-9" penetration. 

[illy 1]

An 8+1 .45 is probably in the 2 BG catagory where a 15+1 is surely in the 3 BG catagory. 

 

 

There are plenty of 10 +1 .45s out there. 

 

Also-

FNX- 15 +1

XD/Glock-  13 +1

HK- 12 +1

 

[areacode201 4]

You may as well find 45's you like. When the Governor leaves office and we get his Democrat or RINO successor, we'll have 10 round (or less, like NY) mag limits faster than you can blink. I'm glad I'll be out of state by then.

 

Can't restate this enough.  We all need to realize that the Christie vetoes of 2013 only bought us a little more time, nothing more.

[Malice4you 627]

Cool, let us know when the FBI will be selling their old .40 cal handguns so we can pick them up cheap! 

I would LOVE to have an issued and FBI-marked gun, without the hassle of stealing one from an FBI agent's car (like someone did a few months back).

[alec.mc 180]

I had heard they were such bad shots and needed the larger magazine ammo capacity to ensure they hit something during mag dumps

 

 

 

               

[BlueLineFish 615]

I had heard they were such bad shots and needed the larger magazine ammo capacity to ensure they hit something during mag dumps

 

 

 

quoted for troof...lol

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Give all agents .454 casull. Then there is no arguments on dropping someone.

[kman 56]

With LE transitioning to 9mm, police and military become ammunition compatible and can share their ammunition when they work together. Think about that for a while.....

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

 

[tony357 386]

With LE transitioning to 9mm, police and military become ammunition compatible and can share their ammunition when they work together. Think about that for a while.....

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

This makes more sense..

[tony357 386]

It wasn't just the 9mm, it's that they were loaded w/ the sh1tty 1980s 115gr Winchester Silvertips, known for jacket/lead separation, unreliable expansion and 7-9" penetration. 

When they went to the 9mm i remember i big point was that it would not go through the intended target..

[Smokin .50 1,907]

It wasn't just the 9mm, it's that they were loaded w/ the sh1tty 1980s 115gr Winchester Silvertips, known for jacket/lead separation, unreliable expansion and 7-9" penetration. 

 

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

And just WHO was responsible for THAT bad decision?  Somebody had to write a REPORT and SUGGEST IT, and then some other Pinhead Higher-Up had to APPROVE the wonder nine and it's wonder rounds AFTER the tests and reports.  I really hope for their sake it's NOT the same committee of Pinheads suggesting the current switch.........

 

Alec has the BEST point:  No matter which tool, they need to learn HOW TO HIT!  AND REMEMBER FROM THEIR MISTAKES OF THE PAST!  Further, they need to employ common-sense techniques and useful tools in situations that could EXPAND beyond the realm of normal "Police work", and while doing so should be mindful of placing AR-15's with 30 round mags back into their vehicle's rifle carriers butt-first with the muzzle of loaded guns pointed at themselves..........  And YES this did happen at a Bank Robbery scene and was witnessed by a reliable source!

[2Alpha 6]

 

Alec has the BEST point:  No matter which tool, they need to learn HOW TO HIT!

 

Not going to happen, their training is a joke, the qualifications course is pathetic and with the sequester, they put very few rounds down range

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

Long but interesting read on 1986 FBI Miami firefight and it's ballistic conclusions.

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It probably wont effect the supply of 9mm ammo unless you buy the REEEEAAAAAALLLLYY good stuff. Were talking about the stuff that cost like .75 a round and more. 20 bucks for a 25rnd box of +p hollow points... i have maybe 200 rounds of this stuff and i don't shoot it after i confirm its reliability... LEO's dont use plinking rounds, so its a non-issue really... and in the event of a shortage like we saw last year, it doesnt mean squat if LEO's use the round or not... if its popular its Gone Gone Gone.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

If the Feds switch to 9mm what are they gonna do with all that .40 they been buying? I guess they'll need to rebut it in 9mm.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Shane45 807]

There are plenty of 10 +1 .45s out there. 

 

Also-

FNX- 15 +1

XD/Glock-  13 +1

HK- 12 +1

 

Well aware of the high cap 45 offerings but IMO they are a little rough to CCW. In terms of rank and file duty weapon, they may be a problem for the small handed.

[lunker 274]

Well aware of the high cap 45 offerings but IMO they are a little rough to CCW. In terms of rank and file duty weapon, they may be a problem for the small handed.

The long awaited resurgence of 45GAP?

[Parker 213]

Long but interesting read on 1986 FBI Miami firefight and it's ballistic conclusions.

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

 

The infamous made-for-TV movie shootout from 1986:

 

 

The FBI recap:

[tony357 386]

And who could forget this one when two bank robbers wear armor..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqfrr26yTSY

[SgtToadette 59]

It's about time that they switched to 9mm. The 40 needed to go.

[almiz111 26]

Posted Today, 01:43 AM

lunker, on 14 Dec 2013 - 5:40 PM, said:

You may as well find 45's you like. When the Governor leaves office and we get his Democrat or RINO successor, we'll have 10 round (or less, like NY) mag limits faster than you can blink. I'm glad I'll be out of state by then.

 

Can't restate this enough.  We all need to realize that the Christie vetoes of 2013 only bought us a little more time, nothing more.

 

*************************************

You two guys are so right. And there will be more. You won't have any lead on your fingers in the future. And your new style ammo will be 2x in price.  Call me a pessimist.   

[Vlad G 345]

Im amused how how people think we are not aware of the giant sword over our head. Dude, everyone knows, we live with this every day. Yet when we marched on Trenton a lot of people were otherwise occupied.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I'm planning on making a move soon

[Parker 213]

The long awaited resurgence of 45GAP?

 

Someone actually owns one?

[lunker 274]

Someone actually owns one?

Our intrepid forum leader Maks has a Glock in 45 GAP. It was a good idea (45ACP ballistics in a smaller package), but had 100 years of tradition and inertia to overcome.