slickskin

Gunshow loophole?

71 posts in this topic

Sometimes when you watch political debates you hear people bringing up something called the "gunshow loophole". What does this mean exactly? That during gun shows or a private sale the vendor might decline to do a background check? Could someone without an NJ FID or even a convicted felon by a weapon there?

 

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1 hour ago, Golf battery said:

That term is a lie put out by the leftie liberals.  Its a farce to encite other lefty liberals to justify their emotional irrational cause. 

Depends how you look at it. If you go to a gun show in most free states you can buy a handgun or long gun from another individual as a private sale and as long as you have an in-state ID and meet the age requirements, you can buy a gun with no background check.

I think that is what is referred to as the "Gun show loophole." 

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Yeah.  Theres no loophole. The buyer here. In nj. Has already had their backgrounds checked out.  Firearms arent the problem.  Its the idiots out there in the world that are the problem    You cant correct stupid.  Stupid is as stupid does. 

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7 hours ago, carl_g said:

Depends how you look at it. If you go to a gun show in most free states you can buy a handgun or long gun from another individual as a private sale and as long as you have an in-state ID and meet the age requirements, you can buy a gun with no background check.

I think that is what is referred to as the "Gun show loophole." 

Correct.  Liberals attempt, very successfully, to twist this into being the evil scourge responsible for the majority of violent crime.

They then try to claim individuals travel from out of state to find private sellers to sell them guns without background checks.  They leave out the fact that almost all street crime is committed with handguns.  And that it is already illegal for private sellers to sell a handgun to an an out of state citizen.  All state to state handgun sales must be shipped to an FFL in the purchasers home state where a background check will be performed before the buyer can take possession.

But that fact is hardly every brought up in the mainstream media as a counter point.  It is hardly ever pointed out that such transactions are already illegal and that individuals engaging in those transactions are already violating the law.

In reality most firearms used in street crimes were either purchased via  a straw purchase where a clean buyer pases background check and legally purchases a firearm but who then passes / sells gun to someone who would not pass background check, or were stolen.

 

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8 hours ago, slickskin said:

Sometimes when you watch political debates you hear people bringing up something called the "gunshow loophole". What does this mean exactly? That during gun shows or a private sale the vendor might decline to do a background check? Could someone without an NJ FID or even a convicted felon by a weapon there?

 

Short answer- gun show loophole = private sale and all applicable state and federal laws apply.  Long answer, see above posts....  However there is a new federal somewhat ambiguous law about private sales, that being how many sales does it take to make you a business/dealer which changes things a little bit for a seller.

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The loophole is finding a private seller who is willing to break the law, which means the buyer is also willing to break the law. Which they shouldn't call a gunshow loophole because you will not find a seller in say PA who is willing to sell to you without at least seeing your PA driver's license. Also PA doesn't allow Person to Person handgun sales. SC does but again you won't find someone at a gunshow there willing to break the law. The ATF has been known to pose as buyers who are looking to break the law. So in conclusion any loophole is a buyer and seller willing to break the law.

 

 

 

Also if you find a seller dumb enough to break the law if you get caught as the buyer expect charges from Feds, NJ, and whichever state you traveled to.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, slickskin said:

Sometimes when you watch political debates you hear people bringing up something called the "gunshow loophole". What does this mean exactly? That during gun shows or a private sale the vendor might decline to do a background check? Could someone without an NJ FID or even a convicted felon by a weapon there?

 

Aren't you the same one who was asking about going to another state and buying long gun there without NJ FPID ? 

Let me repeat the response again. Law abiding citizens follow State and Federal Laws. Criminals don't. There is no loophole. 

Criminals don't drive all the way to some gun show to take advantage of a non-existing "loophole". They can buy stuff they want at the corner in Newark or Camden, no problem. And you can thank Democrats for that situation. 

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Aren't you the same one who was asking about going to another state and buying long gun there without NJ FPID ?  Let me repeat the response again. Law abiding citizens follow State and Federal Laws. Criminals don't. There is no loophole.  Criminals don't drive all the way to some gun show to take advantage of a non-existing "loophole". They can buy stuff they want at the corner in Newark or Camden, no problem. And you can thank Democrats for that situation. 

 

 

 I'm starting to guess OP has something in his background that is making him afraid to apply for a FPID out of fear of denial. So OP is looking for loopholes. I have a friend in the same situation. Years ago dumbass got 2 DWI, one of which involved an argument with a girl he was dating. She punched him multiple times in front of the cop. He didn't hit her back, but did spit on her. Charge of assault was added to his DWI for spitting. I told him to press counter charges and not plead out. He took a plea which was $250 fine and charges dropped to disorderly person, but domestic still on record. Rather than go for expoungement he looked for loopholes. Upon not finding any he is trying for expoungement.

 

 

Does that about sum it up OP? If so spend the money on the expoungement. If it is something more recent you need to wait to get it expunged. If it is something more severe you are screwed and can only illegally own a firearm. In which case Juan and Tyrone on the corner, or someone with a nickname like Killer is your only option. Do not try and buy a firearm from a law abiding citizen. They will not sell it to you.

 

 

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2 hours ago, gleninjersey said:

In reality most firearms used in street crimes were either purchased via  a straw purchase where a clean buyer pases background check and legally purchases a firearm but who then passes / sells gun to someone who would not pass background check, or were stolen.

And only a scant amount of these are prosecuted! It's a known problem that gangbangers will even dupe their own grandmother into making a gun purchase for them. What happens all too often is that local prosecutors don't want to "throw granny in jail" - so they don't prosecute the case, or they at least plea it down to practically nothing. And THAT is why straw purchases continue to be as prevalent as they are.

Similarly, when ex-felons apply to get a gun and are (rightly so) rejected by the NICS check -- the prosecution of those cases (by the Feds) has been abysmally low as well. 

The fact is that there have been numerous large, credible crime studies that specifically studied the backgrounds of the people who committed crimes with a gun. These studies (by DOJ, large universities, criminal justice think tanks, etc.) are all remarkably similar in their findings. Typically, 70-90% are committed by ex-felons (typically about half of them while still on parole from the previous crime), about 3% are cops, less than 1% are legal gun owners - and the remaining fall into the "other" category (like people who got the gun illegally, perhaps had a long history of misdemeanors, etc.)  I've seen the same basic "pie chart" across too many studies to think that it's not actually a true picture!

That's why the phrase "common sense gun control" makes me batty!! How did we let these anti-2A zealots hijack that term? Trying to impact crime by going after the people least likely to commit it is actually the opposite of common sense! Aggressive prosecution of straw purchasers (and the criminals that put them up to it), aggressive prosecution of ex-felons who get caught in a NICS check, a serious re-examination of parole procedures, less plea bargains... and heavy, sustained investment in community programs that keep high-risk kids out of gangs... now THAT would be "common sense". When trying to solve a problem, you must address the obvious and largest root cause. 

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Here is the bigger problem.  Anyone who looks at FBI Crime Stats and other published information on all causes of deaths, will quickly realize how small (numbers and percentage) firearm related deaths are (even if you include MASS KILLINGS). 

More people died from slipping and falling than firearms. Many times more people died from medical malpractice than all firearm deaths. 

If you take NJ, according to FBI Crime stats, more people were killed using "hands, fists, feet" than all rifles combined (including the Assault Ones). Yet, NJ spent money and time to ban "bump stocks". 

In reality, this politically motivated focus on "Gunz" takes focus away from real problems, real causes of "mass murder" and law enforcement. Thats the real problem Public should be rallying against. 

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10 minutes ago, jackandjill said:

Here is the bigger problem.  Anyone who looks at FBI Crime Stats and other published information on all causes of deaths, will quickly realize how ridiculous this "war on 2A" has become. 

Couldn't agree more! Deaths by shootings have trended downward for decades... and fall well below the other more common causes of death in the U.S. That's why the other phrase I despise is "gun violence epidemic" - first of all, "gun violence" implies that violence by gun is some highly unique crime (as though a career criminal wouldn't just as happily stab you death - violence is violence and its root cause is the violent offender)... and worse yet, by using the word "epidemic", it implies that the trend is moving sharply upward (the opposite, in fact, of where the multi-decade trend line has been).

Look at the trend lines for deaths by opioids... calling that "the opioid epidemic" is actually quite accurate. Those cases are, in fact, skyrocketing.

Words matter! Facts matter! The thing that makes me the most frustrated is that the organized 2A movement has not done a better job of messaging. Nearly ALL of the facts, trends and credible studies are in their favor - but they do a really poor job of getting that info out there, IMO.

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12 hours ago, slickskin said:

Sometimes when you watch political debates you hear people bringing up something called the "gunshow loophole". What does this mean exactly? That during gun shows or a private sale the vendor might decline to do a background check? Could someone without an NJ FID or even a convicted felon by a weapon there?

 

I must say, as others have noted, it seems you have an unusual number of questions about circumventing the system... but unless I've missed it, not a lot about "hey, what kind of gun do you recommend I get?" etc. So, I'm sure there's something bubbling under the surface - and you've piqued my curiosity, I'll give you that. My "spidey senses" are tingling!  LOL.

Now, I will say, when I first got into shooting, I was a bit worried about a lot of things too. My main fears were: What will these people be like? Are they the "gun nuts" I've heard about? (Yeah, I laugh about it now). My NRA instructor turned out to be a retired HS teacher... AND an ordained minister. A sweetheart! Since then, I've met shooters who were male and female... straight and gay.... republican, independent AND democrat... Christian, Jewish, Muslim and atheist... etc. Overwhelmingly they were all friendly and helpful and very forthcoming with good advice. 

I was also needlessly worried about all the legalities. As is turned out, if like myself, you have no disqualifying factors (felonies, DV convictions, adjudication for mental illness, etc.), you will be just fine! You might have to wait awhile for your FID/permits, but you'll get them eventually.

My point is this: if you have some special situation that's prompting your legal concerns, instead of fishing around... you'd probably be better off asking just for the names of some local 2A attorneys and dealing with it privately. As knowledgeable and helpful as people are in this community, there's no substitute for advice from an attorney well-schooled in 2A issues. 

And, god forbid, on the slim chance you're trying to get advice on how to circumvent NJ's gun laws... I assure you, you won't find those answers here! People will bend over backwards to try to keep a noob like yourself OUT of trouble. I can say with high degree of confidence, they won't advise you on how to break the law! The 2A community understands that when people do stupid things with guns, it (unfortunately) makes all of us look bad! 

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makes one wonder if us paranoid people are really paranoid, doesn't it?

I don't think he is a plant and no one here can get in trouble for stating what the law and reality is.

 

 

Unless ones rights were taken through due process via a court hearing I do feel for them. If not for the fact that I diligently fought all the false allegations and false arrests against myself I could be in the same situation. Unfortunately young and dumb usually goes along with broke for most people and they take the cheapest way out if offered to them.

 

 

 

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no...we can't get into trouble for stating the laws.....but.....things like this make one think that the person could be fishing for a pm or something on a way 'round the system. i'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen.....but this is the kind of shit that the left does........

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no...we can't get into trouble for stating the laws.....but.....things like this make one think that the person could be fishing for a pm or something on a way 'round the system. i'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen.....but this is the kind of shit that the left does........
I could see that. Hopefully everyone here is smart enough not to do or say anything that would run afoul of the law. Even though the laws are Unconstitutional we need the courts to officially overturn them

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2 hours ago, capt14k said:

 I'm starting to guess OP has something in his background that is making him afraid to apply for a FPID out of fear of denial. So OP is looking for loopholes. I have a friend in the same situation. Years ago dumbass got 2 DWI, one of which involved an argument with a girl he was dating. She punched him multiple times in front of the cop. He didn't hit her back, but did spit on her. Charge of assault was added to his DWI for spitting. I told him to press counter charges and not plead out. He took a plea which was $250 fine and charges dropped to disorderly person, but domestic still on record. Rather than go for expoungement he looked for loopholes. Upon not finding any he is trying for expoungement.

 

 

Does that about sum it up OP? If so spend the money on the expoungement. If it is something more recent you need to wait to get it expunged. If it is something more severe you are screwed and can only illegally own a firearm. In which case Juan and Tyrone on the corner, or someone with a nickname like Killer is your only option. Do not try and buy a firearm from a law abiding citizen. They will not sell it to you.

 

 

Lol no. I was asking out of curiosity not because I was planning to do that. It does now appear that it's misinformation and democrat propaganda anyway that dangerous people can buy weapons without a background check, at least from gun shows.

I don't have a criminal record so I'd have nothing to be afraid of in background checks. But you aren't completely far off. I really don't like the part where they ask for two references for the FID card since I don't know people in NJ that I'm comfortable asking for that. And there's a chance I might be moving within a year or two in which case I could just not even bother. And I don't think I'm wrong or should be looked at as "suspicious" for having an objection to that since I understand only 4 states require such a card.

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11 minutes ago, slickskin said:

Lol no. I was asking out of curiosity not because I was planning to do that. It does now appear that it's misinformation and democrat propaganda anyway that dangerous people can buy weapons without a background check, at least from gun shows.

I don't have a criminal record so I'd have nothing to be afraid of in background checks. But you aren't completely far off. I really don't like the part where they ask for two references for the FID card since I don't know people in NJ that I'm comfortable asking for that. And there's a chance I might be moving within a year or two in which case I could just not even bother. And I don't think I'm wrong or should be looked at as "suspicious" for having an objection to that since I understand only 4 states require such a card.

FYI, the references need not reside in NJ. 

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Do people who probably are not allowed to own guns obtain them at a gun show? Probably.

Does this make it worth ruining gun shows for the 99.99% of law abiding people? NO.

Can a prohibited person also potentially buy a gun in a private sale from a friend, acquaintance, off a person they met on a website, etc.? Yes.

Are there already laws on the books to slap said person with prison sentences? Yes.

The only reason anyone says "gun show loophole" in 2018 is because the same fossils from 1988 are still in office. 

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It's funny you bring up the references. I didn't think about that one but I should have. I have a friend who grew up with firearms and hunting but never got his FPID. He applied when he was 21 and one of his references never sent in the letter you had to write at that time. Then he moved and 12 years later or 5 years ago he applied again. This time a reference sent in he doesn't believe he should own a gun because he doesn't think anyone should. How he didn't know the guy was an Anti I do not know. Now he is gun shy about applying. I had a reference who I used before not send his in on my last permits which held them up. This time I used the same reference I always do and my FFL. Hopefully Mrs Remixer gets the mail otherwise I may never get my permits lol.

 

 

 So you have out of state and FFL as option. You should be fine. Just apply already. Another reason my friend hasn't is he is a giant procrastinator.

 

 

 

 

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Hey "SLICKSKIN" just go down to your local PD. Ask for the forms or do them online yourself. I'm sure you have 2 friends that will send back the reference letters. Fill them out "TYPED" Turn them in, get receipt, make appt for FBI fingerprints, pay online, wait around for a few months, harass the department for your fid and permits every week after the first 30 days. They eventually give them to you, go buy your gun, Done. Thats pretty much what i did. 

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1 hour ago, capt14k said:

I could see that. Hopefully everyone here is smart enough not to do or say anything that would run afoul of the law. Even though the laws are Unconstitutional we need the courts to officially overturn them

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

that's my point. the laws are in fact illegal and unconstitutional....but sadly we've gotta live with em till we get them set straight.

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30 minutes ago, mossburger said:

Do people who probably are not allowed to own guns obtain them at a gun show? Probably.

Does this make it worth ruining gun shows for the 99.99% of law abiding people? NO.

Can a prohibited person also potentially buy a gun in a private sale from a friend, acquaintance, off a person they met on a website, etc.? Yes.

Are there already laws on the books to slap said person with prison sentences? Yes.

The only reason anyone says "gun show loophole" in 2018 is because the same fossils from 1988 are still in office. 

Do people who probably are not allowed to own guns obtain them at an FFL? Probably.

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Something smells fishy in here.  Oops there goes my paranoia again.  

 

Here is the simple answer:  there is no such thing as the gunshow loophole.  It does not exist.

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