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Ray Ray

Dangerous range policies?

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Okay, I know this will piss off many members here and some range owners BUT I will.  I find it extremely dangerous that SOME ranges allow new shooters to rent big bore semi autos, revolvers and AKs.  Me and a friend used a local range that I like and have been to many times.   But this time was the first time I went on a Friday so it was crowded.  There were all kinds of new shooters renting guns.  Now, some rented basic guns like 22s, Glocks and Berettas.  But many (mostly young males) decided to rent 44 magnum, 50 AE and AK47s.  Why, as a range owner, would you allow a new shooter to rent a firearm that is meant for an experienced shooter?   We found ourselves continuously checking the other ports for dangerous activities. Yes, you should do that anyway but when the dude next to you has never shot a gun and his first experience is with a 50 AE, we got a problem.  Add to that, he is more excited about instagram likes than safety.  Thoughts?

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I hear the bitch in the OP, and agree.  Hell I hate going to my PRIVATE MEMBERS ONLY club when other members are there; it's amazing how many of these old guys don't know or can't follow the rules.

Last range outing with a newbie, there was a member there I'd seen the day before, and while we were waiting for him to pack up I could tell he was curious as to why I was waiting to move the bench and hang targets. It's because you still had an uncased firearm on your bench, with the action closed, and you were packing up.  I knew any moment you were going to touch it to put it away, and I knew you weren't going to follow the rule about no touchie when people are forward of the firing line.  How did I know this? Because you'd done it the day before!

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As someone with over 47 years of range experience under their belt, I can tell you that I've seen it all.  Hot brass down the back, between the toes or into the cleavage!  Miss-feeds, double-feeds, primer-only hand loads that don't  go "BANG", hand loads that are double-charged & blow-up Glocks, even a friend that brought 7mm ULTRA-MAG ammo for his 7mm mag rifle & wondered why it didn't fit!

From a bidness standpoint, it's all about running your operation correctly, using computer data to view renting history of a gun renter/customer, having enough RSO's to handle the Newbies & thrill-seekers, and maintaining a tight ship at a commercial range that rents.  Places like Gun For Hire get it right.  Rentals in a "lock-box", carried by the RSO to the shooting port, and then RSO supervision to make sure you can handle the .50 AE's & .44 Mags before they walk away.  

sota's experience is not uncommon.  Patience IS a virtue, and can SAVE LIVES!   EVERYONE at a private club is their own RSO.  Sometimes the Old Farts Club needs a helpful "schmooze" to re-educate them & make them aware of their "faults".  Hopefully we'll all grow that old together :) 

Rosey

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2 minutes ago, BobA said:

@Smokin .50 I’ll bet you hurt a few days after that cleavage thing. Huh?

Yiup, lol!  It's almost pumpkin' huntin' season...only 5 more months to WAIT Bob! :) 

Image may contain: 1 person, smiling

 

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A Fuddish friend of mine wanted to take his middle-aged daughter to the range and she wanted to go to scratch firing a gun off of her bucket list.  I brought the two of them to a private range.  I was hoping that we were alone and we were.  She tried a couple of 22s and then graduated to a 9mm.  She wasn't particularly fond of it. Anyway, I carefully made sure we were following the rules and I assist her.  Next, he pulls out his 1911 and really wants her to try it.  I didn't think it was a good idea.  But I let it happen and got behind her and put my hands around hers around the gun, and thank  God I did.  She didn't have that gun at all.... We were done at that point.  She was done.  i doubt she would ever go shooting again.  

Once a guy next to me was shooting a 357 and had his hands in the wrong location .   Since he didn't seem to be that comfortable in what he was doing I watched him and offered him some advice.   I quickly told him that that wouldn't be a good idea.

That scene from Las Vegas in which the girl was given a fully automatic and killed her instructor comes to mind.   Anyway, all responsible shooters   have a responsibility to maintain safety and educate, etc. when necessary.  I don't usually go to a public range, but when I have been there I thought they were pretty vigilant. 

 

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I think it depends on the individual shooter. First handgun I ever shot was a 44mag. I had no problems controlling it at 12 or 13 years old. I did have an adult who was teaching me standing right behind me making sure I did everything safely though 

FWIW I used to o to EFGA on Friday evenings and almost always had the entire property to myself 

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29 minutes ago, fishnut said:

I think it depends on the individual shooter. First handgun I ever shot was a 44mag. I had no problems controlling it at 12 or 13 years old. I did have an adult who was teaching me standing right behind me making sure I did everything safely though 

FWIW I used to o to EFGA on Friday evenings and almost always had the entire property to myself 

I tend to agree.  Based upon actually working with lots of first-timers at Old Bridge R&P Club Ladies Day for a long time (up until recently---our Hog Hunt was on the same day this year), and having fond memories of wide smiles on the ladies kissers after being correctly taught how to shoot a 1911 in .45 ACP.  If not taught correctly, one hell of a flinch is developed, so best to start with something a little less "potent" for most folks.  Most 12 or 13 yr olds don't have large enough hands to wrap around the grips.  You're not "the rule", you're more of "the exception", lol!  

That all being said, my son (at 13) loved the .38 spl revolver & could shoot it all day long.  He shot my Model 29 back then, but it was a little much for him.  Again, a personal, individual decision...

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i agree and disagree. When I worked at a range as a RSO and sales, I regularly instructed many new shooters how to handle and shoot larger bore firearms. With proper instruction they were capable of safely shooting the firearms many times better than "seasoned" shooters.

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19 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Okay, I know this will piss off many members here and some range owners BUT I will.  I find it extremely dangerous that SOME ranges allow new shooters to rent big bore semi autos, revolvers and AKs.  Me and a friend used a local range that I like and have been to many times.   But this time was the first time I went on a Friday so it was crowded.  There were all kinds of new shooters renting guns.  Now, some rented basic guns like 22s, Glocks and Berettas.  But many (mostly young males) decided to rent 44 magnum, 50 AE and AK47s.  Why, as a range owner, would you allow a new shooter to rent a firearm that is meant for an experienced shooter?   We found ourselves continuously checking the other ports for dangerous activities. Yes, you should do that anyway but when the dude next to you has never shot a gun and his first experience is with a 50 AE, we got a problem.  Add to that, he is more excited about instagram likes than safety.  Thoughts?

@Ray Ray I don't think you are pissing off to many people with that statement.

I would even go to say further, it's stupid to shoot an AR, AK, Mosins, or any other rifle at a 25 yard indoor range. (22's excluded).  One exception being you are trying to sight in gun, test something, etc.  

As far as renting, I personally agree with you, but as a 2A believer, I believe as long as people are being safe or not in a position to hurt others, they can do as they please.  When it comes to renting... this is why I think renters should have an RSO who is watching them like a hawk, especially if it is their first few times at the range or in NJ, don't have an FID or not there with an experienced shooter or someone you know.

But this is also why I generally don't shoot at public indoor ranges... once you are muzzle swept a few times you just call it a day. lol.

But then the question is... who is more likely to be irresponsible, the guy coming in to rent a gun, OR the semi-newish gun owner who is bringing his wife/gf/friends to come shoot and wants to impress them with a bigger gun?

It's quite funny, about 10 years ago when I was a newish gun owner, shot a Desert Eagle 44... was getting late, some hotter loads... I double tapped it by accident.  A few weeks ago shot the same gun and was expecting that same massive recoil still in my head.... nope, not even close.  The difference being about 100,000 rounds fired from the first time I shot a 44 Deagle and now.

I think it is especially worse for people who are not naturally bigger and can displace the recoil throughout the body.  For smaller people, having proper grip, and for long guns, having it tight in the pocket is the difference between a good shot and a dislocated shoulder or the muzzle hitting you in the forehead.

This is why I had so much respect for my friend who is a newer gun owner, despite being a fairly big guy, 6'3" 240, when he passed up on shooting a 50 BMG when offered because he was not comfortable yet. 

So here is a question for everyone... "If you were a gun store owner, do you put a max on the caliber you rent to new or non-gun owners?"

17 hours ago, bhunted said:

Wear a lot of body armor? :dancer:

Sad part... that is not a joke.  A few years ago we actually had a topic about this regarding a number of members who do wear armor going to a public range.

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5 hours ago, Maksim said:

 

Sad part... that is not a joke.  A few years ago we actually had a topic about this regarding a number of members who do wear armor going to a public range.

Not meant to be a joke. I've had many altercations over the years and unfortunately you must keep your head on a swivel. I've yelled at people more than once. You just have to be diligent. Shit happens and hopefully nothing really bad comes out of it. The best ranges have problems no matter how hard they try. 

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THe big bore hand cannons I can understand. recoil management issues can turn dangerous there. 

I'm not sure the complaint about the AK. Long guns in general require more effort to point at me because you are a dumb ass, especially in a range with ports. If the range is built to take the hits, why would I care?  A rifle someone is obviously doing stupid shit with is less bad IMO than a small pistol with a "tame" cartridge being used in a stupid manner more obscured by a port wall. 

What's polite and not punishing in terms of noise and pressure wave in an indoor setting is a different question. 

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37 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

If I can walk into the same store and buy a 50cal why shouldn't I be able to rent one? 

Should we restrict what guns a newbie should own?

Ultimately this is where I land as well.

 

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Some of this thread reminds me of a guy I knew back in the 70s.  He was a new shooter and was interested in hunting.  He didn't want to be underhanded so his first rifle was a 460 Weatherby. He had more money than common sense.

I figured it couldn't be any worse than the Boys Anti-Tank rifle I had fired a couple rounds through and took the first shots out of his new rifle.  Showed him it wasn't going to hurt him...too much.

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5 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

If I can walk into the same store and buy a 50cal why shouldn't I be able to rent one? 

Should we restrict what guns a newbie should own?

Because you would be a total moron to shoot a 50 cal at an indoor 25 yard range. 

Just because you could does not mean you should. 

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19 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Because you would be a total moron to shoot a 50 cal at an indoor 25 yard range. 

Just because you could does not mean you should. 

Wouldn't that also mean then that the range would be a moron to rent it or allow it?

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