xXxplosive

Is There Anyone Brave Enough......

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Being a life long resident of the great state of New Jersey and this being my 28th yr. as a Certified NRA Instructor in 3 diciplines, I'm still uncertain just what the term "Justifiable Need " means.....Is there a member on this forum who is in the "Know", that can accurately explain just what we have here......maybe a lawyer or a judge who is brave enough to explain the term used on NJ CCL Forms. What Does This Mysterious Phrase Mean.......an accurate, acceptable example please.......Anyone ?

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6 minutes ago, siderman said:

I don't believe there is awritten definition. it is meant to be ambiguous so the chiefs/judges can use their discretion.

Aka deny everyone that' not a retired cop or judge. 

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The statute, passed by the legislature does not define justifiable need.  The definition is found in NJ's Administrative Code where it is referred to as "a written certification of need".

NJAC 13:54-2.4(d) “in the case of a private citizen shall specify in detail the urgent necessity for self-protection, as evidenced by specific threats or previous attacks which demonstrate a special danger to the applicant’s life that cannot be avoided by means other than by issuance of a permit to carry a handgun,”

 

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I believe the term is "a serious threat," which Christie had softened slightly from "a specific, immediate threat."  That change from impossible to nearly impossible had the Dems screaming that pizza delivery drivers would be carrying guns, thereby endangering all of us. 

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1 hour ago, maintenanceguy said:

The statute, passed by the legislature does not define justifiable need.  The definition is found in NJ's Administrative Code where it is referred to as "a written certification of need".

NJAC 13:54-2.4(d) “in the case of a private citizen shall specify in detail the urgent necessity for self-protection, as evidenced by specific threats or previous attacks which demonstrate a special danger to the applicant’s life that cannot be avoided by means other than by issuance of a permit to carry a handgun,”

 

"Previous attacks" 

Fucking assholes, so if I already survived an attack THEN I can apply?  Like, ask for One?

I hate these people 

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56 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

The definition comes from a judge's ruling in the 1971 court case Siccardi v. State.  The courts were using this as their standard after that case and It was finally incorporated into the NJAC in 1991.

Unfortunately overturned in ... what circuit. And they did not pursue further.

wasnt it DC?

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3 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

"Previous attacks" 

Fucking assholes, so if I already survived an attack THEN I can apply?  Like, ask for One?

I hate these people 

Here's the Catch-22:

If you survived previous attacks, it's obvious you don't need carry.

You've already proven that!

 

In reality, you need to have been killed in an attack.

Then they'll grant it posthumously

 

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4 hours ago, fishnut said:

Aka deny everyone that' not a retired cop or judge. 

Retired cops don't need to show "justifiable need".  They do not apply for their carry permit through the chief and a judge.  Their application goes straight to NJSP 

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41 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Retired cops don't need to show "justifiable need".  They do not apply for their carry permit through the chief and a judge.  Their application goes straight to NJSP 

True. The NJSP has a special Dept for issuing to retired. But they must re-apply every 6 months and qualify every 6 months too. 

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An 'ordinary' (non-retired officer) carry permit is valid for a period of 2 years.

The renewal process is exactly the same as the initial application process.

 

The permit holder must qualify on the range to the same standards as a sworn officer twice a year, under both day and night conditions to keep his permit valid.

 

And the 'bonus' provision of 2C:58-4f is as follows:

"Any permit may be revoked by the Superior Court, after hearing upon notice to the holder, if the court finds that the holder is no longer qualified for the issuance of such a permit.  The county prosecutor of any county, the chief police officer of any municipality, the superintendent or any citizen may apply to the court at any time for the revocation of any permit issued pursuant to this section."
 

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Even regular citizens need to qualify shoot every 6 months, just like the police to get a carry permit.   NJ issues about 400 carry permits each year.  They're good for 2 years so there are about 800 of these permits out there.  My assumption is that the vast majority are going to armed security guards.  The process for getting an armed security carry permit is the same but the "justifiable need" is not part of the requirements.

But, if you get a carry permit as a security guard, it will say on the permit that it's only valid during working hours.  You still can't carry outside of work.

 

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7 hours ago, BobA said:

True. The NJSP has a special Dept for issuing to retired. But they must re-apply every 6 months and qualify every 6 months too. 

True, RPO permits are handled by NJSP.  They are valid for one year and qualification is twice per calendar year at least 3 months apart not every 6 months.

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13 hours ago, maintenanceguy said:

The statute, passed by the legislature does not define justifiable need.  The definition is found in NJ's Administrative Code where it is referred to as "a written certification of need".

NJAC 13:54-2.4(d) “in the case of a private citizen shall specify in detail the urgent necessity for self-protection, as evidenced by specific threats or previous attacks which demonstrate a special danger to the applicant’s life that cannot be avoided by means other than by issuance of a permit to carry a handgun,”

 

So this is it..................wow !

9 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

Here's the Catch-22:

If you survived previous attacks, it's obvious you don't need carry.

You've already proven that!

 

In reality, you need to have been killed in an attack.

Then they'll grant it posthumously

 

Like the unfortunate lady in south jersey who was killed in a domestic while waiting for a LTC.............

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7 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

An 'ordinary' (non-retired officer) carry permit is valid for a period of 2 years.

The renewal process is exactly the same as the initial application process.

 

The permit holder must qualify on the range to the same standards as a sworn officer twice a year, under both day and night conditions to keep his permit valid.

 

And the 'bonus' provision of 2C:58-4f is as follows:

"Any permit may be revoked by the Superior Court, after hearing upon notice to the holder, if the court finds that the holder is no longer qualified for the issuance of such a permit.  The county prosecutor of any county, the chief police officer of any municipality, the superintendent or any citizen may apply to the court at any time for the revocation of any permit issued pursuant to this section."
 

that makes me wonder.....in the last few years, i think there were 2 permits issued in order to make those cases go away. i wonder if those guys still have theirs, or if they've been pulled yet. or if they're gonna just not approve them on renewal......

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14 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

that makes me wonder.....in the last few years, i think there were 2 permits issued in order to make those cases go away. i wonder if those guys still have theirs, or if they've been pulled yet. or if they're gonna just not approve them on renewal......

They got their permits....schilled everyone to donate to their legal defense - as it would help everyone and open the flood gates - again got their permits and ran away......  

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1 hour ago, USRifle30Cal said:

They got their permits....schilled everyone to donate to their legal defense - as it would help everyone and open the flood gates - again got their permits and ran away......  

yea i know. but.....has a judge gone and decided upon review that they can't have them? based on that part of the statute i quoted previously?

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Heres the easy guide to getting your CCW in NJ. Shhh, don't tell anyone though, don't want just anyone to get one!

Are you rich?

Are you powerful?

Are you politically connected?

Are you currently dead?

Are you, by name, currently and publicly on ISIS' "most wanted dead" list?

Have you (or are you currently) been kidnapped by angry bikers because you acidentally scuffed the bike belonging to Skullbasher (the biker gang's leader)?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then you will not be getting a NJ CCW. If you answered yes to *all* of the above questions, you might qualify.

However, there IS another way in NJ. You can carry concealed in NJ all the time - without a permit - as long as you are committing other crimes and/or have a criminal record, then it is apparently just fine!*

 

 

 

 

*Jail time may still occur, YMMV, not responsible for loss of life/family/friends/freedom/time/job/legal fees/money/guns/etc, i am not a lawyer, etc. Does not qualify for legal NJ gun owners.

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3 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

They got their permits....schilled everyone to donate to their legal defense - as it would help everyone and open the flood gates - again got their permits and ran away......  

If you’re referring to the Party of Six/Almeida case, I understand it feels like it, but that’s not what happened.

Party of Six had several of the plaintiffs drop out of the case (without getting permits).  Almeida was granted his, so without other plaintiffs with standing the case couldn’t go further.

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20 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

"Previous attacks" 

Fucking assholes, so if I already survived an attack THEN I can apply?  Like, ask for One?

I hate these people 

Remember this case? It's almost impossible unless you're on the brink of death and then the media takes your side...

 

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/nj-conceal-carry-permit-finally-issued/#axzz53ubkLG8D

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13 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

So this is it..................wow !

Like the unfortunate lady in south jersey who was killed in a domestic while waiting for a LTC.............

She wasn't waiting for a LTC she was waiting for a permit to purchase.

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