STATEHOUSE FEB 13TH - merged threads

[djg0770 481]

Some reading first so that I understand my enemy and second so I can mount an offense to defeat him:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Radicals-Saul-Alinsky/dp/0679721134/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360844449&sr=8-1&keywords=rules+for+radicals

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Radicals-Defeated-Practical-Defeating/dp/1475192037/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1360844449&sr=8-2&keywords=rules+for+radicals

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/146114325X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1360844502&sr=8-3&keywords=art+of+war

[ruger9 0]

If these pass, we'll enter a time of non-compliance. If they don't push any further, it'll stop there... for awhile. If yesterday showed me anything, it once again proved to me that it will come down the 2A's original intent being used. Question is, when?

 

I've seen several others post similar opinions on this forum, and I wasn't sure if we had gotten there yet. And on a national level, we probably haven't. But with what happened in NY, we are moving dangerously close to it.

[YankeeFan 49]

If these pass, we'll enter a time of non-compliance. If they don't push any further, it'll stop there... for awhile. If yesterday showed me anything, it once again proved to me that it will come down the 2A's original intent being used. Question is, when?

 

I've seen several others post similar opinions on this forum, and I wasn't sure if we had gotten there yet. And on a national level, we probably haven't. But with what happened in NY, we are moving dangerously close to it.

 

I agree. Asshole politicians like Mainor and Cryan don't give a rat's ass how many letters or calls or faxes they get....and they'll be the first to run away like pussies when the shit hits the fan and the bullets start flying.

[Luso 6]

Some reading first so that I understand my enemy and second so I can mount an offense to defeat him:

 

http://www.amazon.co...es+for+radicals

 

http://www.amazon.co...es+for+radicals

 

http://www.amazon.co...ords=art+of+war

 

I have quoted Saul Alinsky and his Rules For Radicals on this board before and I was laughed at. This is precisely what you need to do.

 

Yesterday should have been a clear message to everyone that you can not have a conversation with these people. It doesn't stimulate them, and they don't respond. And they don't care. They don't respond to logic, so you have to appeal to their fear.

 

I have been championing Alinsky all along because his tactics are neutral to ideology.

 

His words: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it" "...make them live up to their own book of rules."

 

This is precisely what I have been saying. This philosopher was good enough for our President, and this relative nobody with 2 years of senate experience is now a two-term president. It must be effective.

 

If Cryan has the CCW, he can be the lynchpin to this argument. Make him live up to the book of rules we all have to abide to. As you now know, the democratic process will yield nothing for us, as they don't listen and will ram through whatever legislation they please. You need to ambush these people Jason Mattera style with cameras and make them answer on tape if they have a CCW.. or turn it around on them--ambush them without them knowing you are recording on your iPhone and say " I know you have a CCW but no average citizen can get access to this permit, how can we make it available so that all law abiding citizens can get what you have?" Notice I didn't ask him if he has one, I made the assumption. If he doesn't have one, he will deny it. If he does, he will say "I am not talking about this" or will walk away from you. That is your public confirmation that he does have it, and you now have a campaign video against the very person who sponsored multiple bills assailing second amendment rights.

 

This could be even juicier - NJ2AS could hold a drive for a cash prize, maybe $10,000. Hold a press conference and say "we know that legislators in our statehouse have CCW permits that our own citizens can not attain. The first journalist to uncover a minimum of 2 individuals who have them that sponsored any of these bills will receive our unconditional cash prize

 

the letters, phone calls, even 1000 people filling 3 rooms and the outside courtyard of the statehouse to capacity as you saw, did nothing. I am not suggesting we stop putting the pressure on them at these hearings, but what will actually get one of them to recuse themselves from these bills is a scandal, and you must dig with the tactics above to produce that. One of these assembleyman is a hypocrite, and you have to make them squeal.

[kman 56]

Remember as well that just because some bills got sent to the floor doesn't mean it's over. Once they get to the floor, there's debate, and there is amendment. This is where ANJRPC's lobbyist working with friendly legislators can employ their own procedures to amend these bills and employ parliamentary rules of order and procedure to delay, change and block the bills from a vote, send them to another committee, etc. They don't just vote on bills coming out of committee. Some bills never get to a vote. On the national level the NRA is really good at employing procedural rules to block unfavorable legislation, those tactics work on the state level also. So this is just the beginning and this is what the ANJRPC is good at handling - in the past few years they have blocked a lot of bills from getting passed. Back in the Florio days I don't think the ANJRPC even had a lobbyist.

 

Also remember that under Florio the NJ state legislature actually repealed the NJ AWB due to backlash. Florio vetoed the repeal, but it is remarkable that a repeal of the law actually was passed. So weird things can happen both ways down there.

 

What speaks down there is money. Notice that the block the state house is on, if you go across the street, there are offices. The unions have an office. Occupy Wall Street has an office. All of the big interests have an office there. If you are really a big player, you have an office near the State House in Trenton, and you pay for re-election campaigns and have full time lobbyists in the State House triangulating shenanigans.

[dimitrge 10]

He has a CCW.... That's a fact! He was also appointed as undersheriff... This gives him the right to carry. Also he was quoted somewhere that he carries a 5 shot revolver.

There is a unioncountywatchdog.org that has been trying to get these idiots out. I think they might be a good place for info on him. Here is a recent bit from her blog

 

Former freeholder Deborah Scanlon’s step-son, Patrick Scanlon Jr., was hired by Union County as a laborer with a salary of $33,521 in August 2011. Scanlon Jr. left the county payroll sometime in January 2012.

 

Public records show that Patrick Scanlon Jr. was convicted of Theft by Unlawful Taking on January 25, 2010 and sentenced to 6 months in jail and 5 years probation by Union County Superior Court Judge Joseph P. Donohue.

 

Judge Donohue is the brother-in-law of Assemblyman/Union County Undersheriff Joseph Cryan. Donohue began his judicial career in the Essex County Sheriff’s office under then Sheriff John Cryan, Joseph Cryan’s father, and Undersheriff Patrick Scanlon, Patrick Scanlon Jr.’s grandfather.

 

Assemblyman/Undersheriff Joseph Cryan swore freeholder Deborah Scanlon in as freeholder commencing each of her terms in 2010, 2007, 2004 and 2000.

 

In March 2012 Freeholder Scanlon announced she would be stepping down at the end of the year to make more time for her family, however she returned to the county payroll just one month after leaving office. She completed her term on December 31, 2012 and on February 1, 2013 she returned to the county payroll as a manager for a newly opened office within the county Department of Human Services at a salary of $75,000.

[Luso 6]

good, then everyone should be walking right into his office, in person, recording, and asking him to surrender his permit. If he says no, then ask him why his life is more valuable than yours. Then shutup, and sit in silence until he responds. this is a dynamite youtube clip. This guy thinks he is better, smarter, more entitled then you, the people who vote him in. Make him go on the record with that sentiment and then take it to the public. If I had known this was the case yesterday, I would have had this brought up in testimony. I can't believe nobody mentioned it. That uncomfortable situation would FORCE the press to cover the issue. "Rep pushing strong gun control has permit to carry that no citizen can attain"

 

 

Think Alinsky. There is no answer to that uncomfortable question that he can make that makes him look innocent. He will look like a colossal prick no matter what. In all likelihood, he will abstain from answering the uncomfortable question directly, which will make him look equally bad.

 

You guys have all you need. He should be your 100% focus

[Luso 6]

NYT picks up

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/nyregion/new-jersey-assembly-committee-approves-tightening-gun-laws.html?_r=0

 

This is why I don't believe in people dressing in these costumes and camo. It gives the mainstream press a tool to demonize us. It may not be fair, but you have to understand their tactics. you need to stop dressing in three-corner hats and other dumb costumes. Everyone should be in suits or presentable outfits. you will be taken more seriously. this will be dismissed as "another dumb tea party rally" whether the statement is fair or not

[diamondd817 827]

Well it made the front page of the Star Ledger. Of course they mentioned the room was filled with camouflage clothing wearing people. For the last time, don't wear camouflage clothing to these things!!! This is not about hunting, this is about personal and national defense!

 

Then they mentioned more than once that statewide polls indicate NJ people want more gun control. What polls are they referring to?

[dimitrge 10]

Can We OPRA CCW permit for Cryan

[Bowling Ball 22]

It's not about personal defense or hunting, the right to defend and feed yourself are given to you by your maker at birth, it's about defense from the government.

[axeman_g 128]

Funny... I saw one digi camo hat... one camo ball cap, worn by the preacher from Newark, and one older gentleman in the colonial uniform.

[wooly bugger 1]

effort should be focused now on these supporters of these absurd bills. If someone here has absolute proof that Cryan has a ccw, there should be recorded phone calls and walk-up video recorded interrogations of him and his staff asking if he will immediately surrender his CCW permit to the state and cease carrying. That is, assuming it is true he has one.

 

Don't whine to him with emails. Get him on record. Don't stop the recordings until you have them on tape admitting one way or the other. Don't just pontificate about their hypocrisy. SHOW it with proof. If him having that permit is true, the hypocrisy will do more to combat these bills than our whining. Prove that he thinks he is better than his constituents and does not deserve to respect the same laws that we must endure. So long as their is a justifiable need clause for carrying, no politician should be granted that permit any more so than your average citizen

Can any LEO in Hudson anonymously confirm this? You can PM me, and I'll post the answer without identifying you.

[jdubsss 0]

What really makes me sick about this is the fact that the gang bangers and hoodlums who carry firearms illegally and use them for drug trafficking, robbery, and murder get thrown in and out of the system like it's a joke. YOU KNOW as well as I do that if someone from this forum was caught carrying concealed despite having no criminal record we would have the book thrown at us to be made an example of.

[Cold Steel 0]

As far as the guy in the Revolutionary War outfit, it said he was a Korean War Veteran. If so, he has earned the right to wear whatever he damn well pleases as far as I'm concerned. He went to war and fought for our freedoms!

 

The Star-Ledger and any other left leaning rag paper will always find something to pick out and try to make a fuss about when Conservatives are concerned. We could all have been dressed in Armani suits and they'd find something to demonize us. Look at the fuss the left leaning media made about Marco Rubio sipping some water during his speech! What a bunch of bs. You have to take them for what they are. Left leaning Liberal media.

[Sigman 41]

The NY Times article linked above states that these will go to assembly for vote on 2/21. Is this true?

[Metalflames 0]

I have quoted Saul Alinsky and his Rules For Radicals on this board before and I was laughed at. This is precisely what you need to do.

 

Saul Alinsky is like a grassroot progressive democrats demigod. That is exactly why we should be reading him and using his tactics. Know your Enemy as if it were yourself- Art of War

[smoe_picka 0]

I see so many people here are divided while trying to say the same thing. Dont be foolish enough to alienate your supporters for what they wear. What you wear is a much as a freedom as what you want to prevent the Socialist class from taking from you at this very moment. Gun owners will be protrayed as vile and evil by the press no matter what you wear. The racist skinhead movement adopted the suit and tie to improve the outward image nonsense. No matter how you dress them up they are still full of hate with a coat and tie. I'm on JBMDL having a casual conversation with several people that are in consensus that NJ is deserving what's it's getting right now. When you sleep with dogs you get fleas. When you elect or don't even bother to vote you deserve what you get. I think compulsorary service by everyone would have prevented much this. This nation lacks an identity and national pride is displayed one day a year. However these are arguments to be had on another day.

[gunforhire 826]

I see so many people here are divided while trying to say the same thing. Dont be foolish enough to alienate your supporters for what they wear. What you wear is a much as a freedom as what you want to prevent the Socialist class from taking from you at this very moment. Gun owners will be protrayed as vile and evil by the press no matter what you wear. The racist skinhead movement adopted the suit and tie to improve the outward image nonsense. No matter how you dress them up they are still full of hate with a coat and tie. I'm on JBMDL having a casual conversation with several people that are in consensus that NJ is deserving what's it's getting right now. When you sleep with dogs you get fleas. When you elect or don't even bother to vote you deserve what you get. I think compulsorary service by everyone would have prevented much this. This nation lacks an identity and national pride is displayed one day a year. However these are arguments to be had on another day.

 

I have been in this lousy game for a long time and I must say that due to better communication via email, and social sites the dress code has improved 1000% from the 90's. I agree the press will always pinpoint and focus on something to make us look dumb, angry, radical. Notice not one mention of the committee's disrespect to our speakers.

[djg0770 481]

As far as the guy in the Revolutionary War outfit, it said he was a Korean War Veteran. If so, he has earned the right to wear whatever he damn well pleases as far as I'm concerned. He went to war and fought for our freedoms!

 

I ask you to consider whether he wouldn't be taken more seriously had he dressed in a Korean War Era uniform...

 

It matters what we wear, it matters what we say and it matters how we act publicly. Unfortunately, it's all about the outward show, the performance so to speak, what's underneath the icing doesn't matter. Hell, Buddy Valastro has proven THAT!

 

Well all need to read Alinsky simply because we need to hit back with the same tactics (or better) than we are being hit with. Parliamentary procedure is great and all, but the other side already has manipulated that completely to their advantage. We will be playing "catch up" no matter what we do, however, we have far more at stake here than simply our 2A rights. This goes to the very fabric of this country. This issue needs to transcend politics, and it needs to be on every tongue, on every airwave, in every newspaper, and on every billboard.

 

Maybe we can hire the taggers in Newark, Elizabeth, Camden and Jersey City to spread OUR message. Certainly they're cheaper than billboards (kidding, sort of).

[djg0770 481]

Notice not one mention of the committee's disrespect to our speakers.

 

IMO Mainor should have been shouted down as soon as he said this was HIS meeting. This is Government of the people, for the people, by the people, not Govt of Mainor for Mainor and by Mainor. I am quite glad that you guys continued to clap when appropriate.

 

I noticed in one story that one person was escorted out - who and why?? Or is this more media fabrication?

[JustJoe 0]

One stinking paragraph about the choice of apparel in the whole article.

 

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/02/gun_control_measures_approved.html

 

"The Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee approved the laundry list of measures despite some outbursts from a throng dotted with NRA baseball caps, camouflage clothing and jackets featuring a coiled rattlesnake from the Revolutionary-era flag. At least two in the audience were ejected."

 

That's it. It would be better if none were in sight from a PR stand point but it's not a big deal, folks. Left out from the print edition was a picture Sandra and her 6 year old Molly, whomever they may be.

[ruger9 0]

One stinking paragraph about the choice of apparel in the whole article.

 

http://www.nj.com/po...s_approved.html

 

"The Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee approved the laundry list of measures despite some outbursts from a throng dotted with NRA baseball caps, camouflage clothing and jackets featuring a coiled rattlesnake from the Revolutionary-era flag. At least two in the audience were ejected."

 

That's it. It would be better if none were in sight from a PR stand point but it's not a big deal, folks. Left out from the print edition was a picture Sandra and her 6 year old Molly, whomever they may be.

 

Journalists.... and they can't be bothered to look up the Gadsen flag? They're not journalists. They're tabloid reporters.

[Caine 147]

The full audio of the hearing is here http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/media/archive_audio2.asp?KEY=ALP&SESSION=2012 (Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:00 AM Committee Room 4)

[NJCK 5]

I'm just logging in. After getting 3hrs sleep on Tuesday night re-reading all proposed Bills and finalizing my arguments I was up at 5am in order to meet axeman_g for the train ride up. I sat in the main room for the hearing. Yes, I testified yesterday, on multiple Bills. By the time all was said and done, I was spent.

 

I have testified in the legislature of 5 States, and by far, this was the most disgraceful I have ever experienced, and I have been involved with some passionate legislation over the years. There is absolutely no wonder why The People's attitude and behavior changed given the intolerable disrespect of ELECTED OFFICIALS to THE PEOPLE. Somewhere they have lost their way... Respect is earned, not given, and the Committee certainly was not giving respect to the voting public who turned out in unbelieveable mass in short order! We are not servants to politicians, they are servants to The People, and as this long post included many times over, they need to learn the lesson come November. It becomes impossible to not let the enraged passion show through in testimony...

 

Nonetheless, just because the Committee kicked the Bills to the Floor, it is not over! They must be debated and voted there. There are many steps in the process, and as others pointed out - TODAY IS THE DAY WE COMMUNICATE OURSELVES TO THE ENTIRE ASSEMBLY AND THE LEGISLATURE AS A WHOLE!

 

Something that REALLY bothered me, and the masses that showed up were not informed of as I ultimately understood after talking to a number of folks that had been in the overflow and had been outside after you came into Room 4 - you could vote your opinion on EVERY Bill without need to provide testimony!!! The little paper forms become official record, and having ~400 or so documented objections would be amazing fodder for lawyers if/when these laws are challenged in court. Quite frankly, I believe the argument I presented on capacity has solid legal ground based upon the Supreme Court's decision, and I hope those in NYS are on the same avenue (I did notice the two Assemblyman who are lawyers actually did pay attention to my statement). Neverthless, this is not our only trip to Trenton so please fill out the forms and cast a recorded objection on Bills you are against each time you are there to support your RIGHT!

[axeman_g 128]

I'm just logging in. After getting 3hrs sleep on Tuesday night re-reading all proposed Bills and finalizing my arguments I was up at 5am in order to meet axeman_g for the train ride up. I sat in the main room for the hearing. Yes, I testified yesterday, on multiple Bills. By the time all was said and done, I was spent.

 

I have testified in the legislature of 5 States, and by far, this was the most disgraceful I have ever experienced, and I have been involved with some passionate legislation over the years. There is absolutely no wonder why The People's attitude and behavior changed given the intolerable disrespect of ELECTED OFFICIALS to THE PEOPLE. Somewhere they have lost their way... Respect is earned, not given, and the Committee certainly was not giving respect to the voting public who turned out in ounbelieveable mass in short order! We are not servants to politicians, they are servants to The People, and as this long post included many times over, they need to learn the lesson come November. It becomes impossible to not let the enraged passion show through in testimony...

 

Nonetheless, just because the Committee kicked the Bills to the Floor, it is not over! They must be debated and voted there. There are many steps in the process, and as others pointed out - TODAY IS THE DAY WE COMMUNICATE OURSELVES TO THE ENTIRE ASSEMBLY AND THE LEGISLATURE AS A WHOLE!

 

Something that REALLY bothered me, and the masses that showed up were not informed of as I ultimately understood after talking to a number of folks that had been in the overflow and had been outside after you came into Room 4 - you could vote your opinion on EVERY Bill without need to provide testimony!!! The little paper forms become official record, and having ~400 or so documented objections would be amazing fodder for lawyers if/when these laws are challenged in court. Quite frankly, I believe the argument I presented on capacity has solid legal ground based upon the Supreme Court's decision, and I hope those in NYS are on the same avenue (I did notice the two Assemblyman who are lawyers actually did pay attention to my statement). Neverthless, this is not our only trip to Trenton so please fill out the forms and cast a recorded objection on Bills you are against each time you are there to support your RIGHT!

 

+100 to this. Rob is also right about the Votes on the slips. I should have filled more out, I did about 4. The bureacrats love to NOT tell you things. I was ignorant of their signifigance... I wont be in the future.

 

This was a farce, an uncaring for the people puppet show. This "bills" are being passed on to put CC on the hot seat and only to put him on the hot seat. They dont care about us... they care only for their powerbases. If dems can make CC look bad in their eyes, at our expense, they dont care. And trust me, Mainor's base is large and powerful, it is the JC pop that will vote for the man no matter what he does because he is a black man in power. It is what it is. Not very many people in his district care what a bunch of pissed off "hunters" care... except the few that line there.

 

Rise up and fight. This is the beginning and it is now time to STOP BEING POLITE. The FB stuff... use it if you can against him. Cryan, somebody in his district needs to take him down in an election. sounds to me like his family is the power bast there... get rid of it. I got my eyes on one... do it. Do It now.

 

By the way, when Mainor stated 20 second to perform a mag change, the NJSP Sarg. in the back cracked up!

[Handyman 5,682]

If he takes 20 seconds to change a magazine, I might be willing to challenge him to a duel.

[ruger9 0]

If he takes 20 seconds to change a magazine, I might be willing to challenge him to a duel.

 

I'll even use NY's "7-round mad limit"!

[M4BGRINGO 139]

IMO Mainor should have been shouted down as soon as he said this was HIS meeting. This is Government of the people, for the people, by the people, not Govt of Mainor for Mainor and by Mainor. I am quite glad that you guys continued to clap when appropriate.

 

I noticed in one story that one person was escorted out - who and why?? Or is this more media fabrication?

As I stated before, this was on tv last night and I watched one woman being escorted out of the room by a State Trooper. Why, I have no idea. They did not air much of the procedings.

[Vlad G 345]

IMO Mainor should have been shouted down as soon as he said this was HIS meeting. This is Government of the people, for the people, by the people, not Govt of Mainor for Mainor and by Mainor.

 

He was shouted down.