Generators ready?

[Malsua 1,422]

NJ.com reporting a wide berth around NJ for the storm.

 

Yeah, out to sea for the Tropical storm.  We're still going to get some rain from the trough but no big deal.  South Jersey up to 2 inches..Sussex county where I'm at might get 1.   Winds will be up a bit but nothing like what the tropical storm would have brought .

[CMJeepster 2,778]

I got a coastal flood warning on my phone even though I'm in western central Jersey. WTF???

[Polak 3]

Looks like it's heading east now.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

[tattooo 220]

Yep....fingers crossed

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Easterly track... don't know what this means for me... I'm thinking my nice warm Bermuda cruise may turn into a cold Canada cruise...

[tattooo 220]

That would be a crappy outcome krdshrk

[fatty 241]

I took a cruise to nova scotia a long time ago...  choppy waters made for LOTS of vomit all over the giant boat..  especially in the elevators lol

 

hope your trip works out nick

[checko 180]

Easterly track... don't know what this means for me... I'm thinking my nice warm Bermuda cruise may turn into a cold Canada cruise...

Did canada last year. Was really nice, though it was a month earlier

[jrfly3006 42]

Easterly track... don't know what this means for me... I'm thinking my nice warm Bermuda cruise may turn into a cold Canada cruise...

Have done both Bermuda and Canada..trip out to Bermuda last time was full blown rocking and rolling..people barfing everywhere..not fun..so Canada might be a good choice if it means calmer seas..either way hoping the best for ya!

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Canada may not be a better option because the storm will still track that way...

 

Bahamas would be kinda ok but I've been there 2x already... Don't feel like doing the same trip again.  Besides the Bahamas are getting torn up right now too...

[Zeke 5,504]

Canada may not be a better option because the storm will still track that way...

 

Bahamas would be kinda ok but I've been there 2x already... Don't feel like doing the same trip again. Besides the Bahamas are getting torn up right now too...

700+ foot cargo ship lost at sea due to hurricane....... @ Bahamas

Jus tossing that out there

[GrumpyOldRetiree 38]

For all the standby generator owners who are using transfer switches that only switch the 2 hot wires (like I do), I hope you are aware that this method requires a generator with a floating neutral. Most, if not all, portable generators sold at Home Depot, Lowes, et al have bonded neutrals. Fortunately, on most of them, the bonding is done outside the generator head so for someone who can read a schematic and knows how to use a VOM, its pretty easy to "float" the neutral.

 

One symptom of this condition is GFCI outlets fed by the generator trip when they are used when there is no ground fault.

 

This can also be dangerous. Under certain conditions, the generator frame can become energized.

 

I'm attaching a short .pdf file that better explains the issue of "commonly derived power" (2 wire transfer) and "separately derived power" (3 wire transfer).

 

it cites several sections of the 2011 NEC.11_Generators_and_Standby_Power_Systems.pdf

 

[Krdshrk 3,877]

700+ foot cargo ship lost at sea due to hurricane....... @ Bahamas

Jus tossing that out there

Just saw that... Yikes... They were right in the eye of the storm it looks like...

[JackDaWack 2,895]

From everything I have read, nothing indicates having to float neutral using the 4 prong twist when wired correctly. correct?

[Sota 1,191]

I can tell you I've done nothing to my generator since I bought it and I haven't had any issues with tripped GFCI's or energized frames... so far. That being said I generally wear gloves when working on/with the generator regardless, as I like to protect my ever so soft and smooth hands

 

I probably should float the ground but then you're supposed to ground the generator with it's own grounding rod, from what I understand. Since I haven't used the damn thing in the same place twice I haven't done that.

 

Also, most if not all generators come with instructions on how to float the neutral if needed.

[GrumpyOldRetiree 38]

From everything I have read, nothing indicates having to float neutral using the 4 prong twist when wired correctly. correct?

No, this is not correct. Please read the . pdf I attached. Also the "Code-Check" Electrical spiral bound book has a pretty good explanation of the issues. Schneder Electric (parent  of Square-D) used to have a real good explanation on their website, but I can't locate it now.  From the pdf:

 

If the feeder conductors from the generator

terminate in a transfer switch that doesn’t open the neutral

conductor, the generator isn’t considered a separately derived

system [

250.30 Note 1]. Figure 445–3. A neutral-to-case bond

isn’t permitted at the generator. Under this condition, the neutral

conductor from the normal power to the transfer switch, and the

neutral conductor from the generator to the transfer switch, are

required to provide the low-impedance fault current path back to

the power source. Figure 445–4

[maintenanceguy 510]

The problem with a bonded Neutral is only a problem if you're using a transfer switch.  If you're using an extension cord plugged into the generator, the danger doesn't exist - unless your refrigerator, toaster, or TV is defective and has the neutral shorted to the ground internally.

 

Basically, the issue is this:  The neutral wire is supposed to carry current.  The ground wire is not.  The ground wire only carries current if something goes wrong.  If there is a short circuit in your toaster and the side of the toaster becomes energized, the electric will flow away through the ground wire instead of flowing away through you - at least that's the plan.

 

However, if the ground and neutral wires are bonded together at both ends of the ground wire, than the ground wire becomes a second path for what was supposed to be the current on the neutral wire.  The ground wire now carries current.  Since the ground wire is "grounded" to the side of your toaster, the side of your toaster is now energized since it's tied right to one of the current carrying conductors (the neutral wire.)

[JackDaWack 2,895]

makes sense.... and luckily(not), my generac doesn't mention a damn thing about floating the neutral in the manual... So im gonna have to figure out where the neutral is bonded to ground... i believe its either on the back of the control panel or at the alternator.

 

If I float neutral, should i ground the generator directly to earth is this a good idea to do regardless?? would it allow to me still plug things directly into the genny in the open 120v outlets?  they are GFCI Outlets so im not sure if they will trip or not with out neutral bonded. ( or is this counter productive)

[RS1200XL 4]

I think I may need a floating generator. They are calling for 12-18 inches of rain....!

[CMJeepster 2,778]

I think I may need a floating generator. They are calling for 12-18 inches of rain....!

My teeth are floating.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

can someone please explain the difference between floating and bonded neutral? and how to tell which is which? i can't find the manual for my generator. it's a husky from home depot that i bought about 5 or 6 years ago......5500watt.

 

thanks guys//////

[JackDaWack 2,895]

can someone please explain the difference between floating and bonded neutral? and how to tell which is which? i can't find the manual for my generator. it's a husky from home depot that i bought about 5 or 6 years ago......5500watt.

 

thanks guys//////

The physical difference is that neutral and ground are bonded together to the frame of the generator. floating neutral means neutral is bonded to your house neutral so you have to disconnected it where it is bonded to ground on the genny. My generator says right on it that neutral is bonded to frame. My manual didn't even say it. If you look up the product number you should find something out there about how your genny is set up... its safe to say its bonded to ground as its standard for stand alone gennys, but exceptions do exist.

[1LtCAP 4,263]

The physical difference is that neutral and ground are bonded together to the frame of the generator. floating neutral means neutral is bonded to your house neutral so you have to disconnected it where it is bonded to ground on the genny. My generator says right on it that neutral is bonded to frame. My manual didn't even say it. If you look up the product number you should find something out there about how your genny is set up... its safe to say its bonded to ground as its standard for stand alone gennys, but exceptions do exist.

thanks man. think mine's bonded then. it doesn't say anything anywhere on the generator....but a green/yellow wire from the gen to the frame, labeled seems to be a give away.....

[1LtCAP 4,263]

now though, i bought a gen cord, and the receptacle box that someone linked above. was gonna remove my welding plug, and mount the receptacle there. the welding plug has red to the left terminal, black to the right terminal, white to the center terminal, and a bare wire to one of the mounting screws........

[JohnnyB 4,325]

If I pull the outside glass meter assembly from its frame, does that isolate the neutral line from the grid???  In my

breaker box, all neutral and ground wires are connected to the same aluminum blocks that also connect to my cold

water supply line.

 

Tripping the main breaker would only isolate the the 2 hot phases leaving the neutral lines connected to the power grid.

I just don't want to endanger a lineman by using my generator!!!

[Kimber45 3]

A slight buzz makes any natural disaster a bit more interesting. To say the least...

[Silence Dogood 468]

Pfffft.   A little storm headed our way (not any more) and you're talking about cannibalism.   Given the wiring discussions  (IANAEB - "I Am Not An Electrician But"...) there will be plenty of food, pre-seared.     At least post some recipes ...

[GrumpyOldRetiree 38]

 

Tripping the main breaker would only isolate the the 2 hot phases leaving the neutral lines connected to the power grid.

I just don't want to endanger a lineman by using my generator!!!

As long as neutral is bonded to ground at your service entrance panel (which is the norm) then nothing should leak out to the utility lines. Which is why the 2 pole transfer switches are code compliant if wired correctly.

 

Regarding how to determine if the generator has a floating or bonded neutral:

With the generator off (NOT RUNNING!!! repeat NOT RUNNING!!!) and NO CORDS plugged into the genny, using an ohm meter or battery powered continuity tester, on the genny, check for continuity between the outlets neutral blade (the longer one) and the outlets equipment ground. If you have continuity the neutral is bonded, if not, the neutral is floating.

 

PLEASE NOTE: All comments I have made in this thread apply to people using a 2 wire transfer switch connected via those 4 wire twist-lock generator cables.

If you are strictly using household extension cords then the neutral should be bonded in the genny and the genny frame should be grounded to a known good ground.

[Sota 1,191]

guess maybe i should consider floating the neutral at the generator. if the only connection I use on my generator is the L14-20R for connection to the house, do i need to drive a copper spike and tie it to the generator? I'm 50' of pre-made cord. I thought the answer was "no" since it could create a grounding loop/problem and I wouldn't want to try and dump excess current through it and the generator anyways... that would be bad. Almost feels like I should isolate the ground between the house and generator, and seperately ground it once my permanently temporary setup is finalized.